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Thread: Physically Most Adept/Strongest Europid Sub-Group in a Fight?

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    Re: AW: Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fig

    Quote Originally Posted by Dropkick View Post
    There was a programe on BBC some years back showing the 3 biggest hitting boxers of all time. There was Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey and John L Sullivan. Sullivan had Irish parents and I think Dempsey's parents were both Irish too.
    Dempsey's fights were all out attacks, you mean. Dempsey was a remarkable boxer, definitely some sort of CM from his face, but rather lean in build despite his success in pounding the living hell out of bigger men. He was 6 foot 1 in height and about 190 pounds in fighting weight with a 9 inch wrist. Rather large boned despite his rather light weight.
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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Some Nordics/CM:

    Kraus
    Ignasov
    Dekkers
    LeBanner
    Zambidis

    CM superiority lies in intelligence and discipline.

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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    A few pics of Jack the Giant Killer I found online. BTW, he was Scotch-Irish, I believe. Looks Brunn and Atlantid to me (Black hair).
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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    We're talking two significantly different beasts, though.

    Given the thread title, I think we can go ahead and postulate a 'no rules' scenario for our hypothetical brawl (I interpret the thread title as a mano a mano/mono y mono i.e. no weapons). In this event, the most well rounded fighter - adept at multiple techniques, and all other things being equal e.g. weight, height, reach etc. - will, in all probability, win. If one individual is a boxer, and the other a Mixed Martial Artist - there is simply no contest: the boxer will immediately be brought to ground and pummled and/or submitted. Actually, he would be toyed with, as a cat does a mouse.
    But the point of this thread isn't the hypothetical "who would win" comparison between different fighters. The point, at least as i was reading it, was to see which sub-racial type excelled most in combat. A requirement which all of the boxers i have posted fulfill.

    Now you can say that in a NHB fight the MMAer would win, which is true in most cases due to the fact that the MMAer cross-trains in so many different phases of combat, and would be able to take the boxer out of his comfort range. But that's more than down to choice of training more than physical or psychological differences between the groups.

    For example Joe Calzaghe and Wladimir Klitschko completely dominate at a sport which MMAers like Mirko Filipovic, Gary Goodridge, Jens Pulver, Igor Vovchanchyn, Vitor Belfort, both the Emelianenko brothers, etc, failed at. So to say that any of the successful boxers shouldn't be counted as successful combatants doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    But even then it doesn't really matter: look at your own examples - show me the boxer without CM admixture.
    What would your classifications of the boxers i posted be?

    Of the MMAers, St. Pierre doesn't look to have any obvious CM admixture to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    Especially this monster!

    Scary man. He actually reminds me of what reconstructions of neanderthals look like more than a fully modern human.
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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedJack View Post
    A few pics of Jack the Giant Killer I found online. BTW, he was Scotch-Irish, I believe. Looks Brunn and Atlantid to me (Black hair).
    Jack Dempsey is one of my favourite fighters of all time. Him and Jim Jeffries are 2 of the few boxers i think could have gone into MMA successfully without needing to spend a lot of time cross training. He was actually quite big as well. If you look at the tale of the tape for heavyweight champions, Dempsey was actually larger in all of the upper body dimensions than Mike Tyson was.

    Unfortunately he also had some Amerindian blood mixed in there as well, which is obviously going to throw off any attempts at sub-racially classifying him.

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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    I have to go with Brunn for two reasons (besides the obvious). One they are the purest cromagnid strain around (due to geographical isolation). Two I learned in college that indigenous types of Britain and Ireland have a significantly higher tolerance for pain than most people, which I can verify from experience. As an afterthought we are also pretty ugly (atleast the men) so we have less to lose.

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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamopy View Post
    But the point of this thread isn't the hypothetical "who would win" comparison between different fighters.
    Sure it is. It is also, by implicative default, a "who would loose" comparison. Not splitting hairs, but stating the practicals of a statement that is using specific words that have specific connotation e.g. Physical, adept, strongest, Eurpopid subgroup, fight.

    The point, at least as i was reading it, was to see which sub-racial type excelled most in combat. A requirement which all of the boxers i have posted fulfill.
    Well that was my point too, and boxers don't make the cut - especially if combat is understood as the act of fighting; any contest or struggle; to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously; a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons; from the Latin battuere - to strike, beat as one person to or on another.

    Any way this gets particularised, the boxer looses - this is not a theory: it has borne itself out since the early days of MMA and has only evolved from there. As I have said, the most adept and strongest Europid subgroup that would win in a fight - in any sense of unarmed (and armed, not so incidentally. But that's another thread...) combat - would be CM and CM admixed individuals.

    Now you can say that in a NHB fight the MMAer would win, which is true in most cases due to the fact that the MMAer cross-trains in so many different phases of combat,
    And that is the point. "Many different phases of combat" equals the more prepared, adept, and strongest fighter, with CM and CM admixed individuals being representative in overwhelming numbers in the more well-rounded combat sports. I invite anyone and everyone to look into it themselves.

    ...and would be able to take the boxer out of his comfort range.
    That is a benign way of putting it.

    But that's more than down to choice of training more than physical or psychological differences between the groups.
    That is part right but largely wrong. When one begins to train their body a certain way, it alters the very neurochemistry of the brain. In the common parlance of the combat sports milieu, it is known as the "mind-muscle connection". Depending on how one trains the body, developes very specific synaptic responses: train the body to throw good, snappy punches - the mind will imprint those movements. Teach the body to lean back and generate power from the erector spinae, lats, rhomboids, and posterior deltoids during a knee kick - the mind will imprint those movements. How the body is trained has a definite co-relation to the physicality, as well as psychology, of the combatent. But yes, some boxers can (and have) made the transition to MMA; but they are lacklustre do to the VERY specificity involved in training a boxer: they are over specialised,and it is, for the most, too late to change the mind-muscle connection - the imprint is there to stay. And certainly the reverse is true too: MMAs would fail miserably as boxers - they are too diversified to restrict themselves to fists, making themselves, ipso facto, the superior (read: stronger, more adept) fighter. And, they will, if sucessful, have CM admixture.

    For example Joe Calzaghe and Wladimir Klitschko completely dominate at a sport which MMAers like Mirko Filipovic, Gary Goodridge, Jens Pulver, Igor Vovchanchyn, Vitor Belfort, both the Emelianenko brothers, etc, failed at. So to say that any of the successful boxers shouldn't be counted as successful combatants doesn't make sense.
    They would be successful against other boxers, within their cline of specialisation: that someone can outbox someone as the criteria of a superior combatent actually strikes me as very odd. Look at it like this: when a specialforces soldier is taught opponent neutralisation, do you think they are teaching him proper jabs, right-crosses, and straight left-hands? I can tell you that they are not: there is far more Jitz than punch.

    What would your classifications of the boxers i posted be?

    Of the MMAers, St. Pierre doesn't look to have any obvious CM admixture to me?
    http://forums.skadi.net/cromagnid_exemplars-t78405.html

    Scary man. He actually reminds me of what reconstructions of neanderthals look like more than a fully modern human.
    When I first saw him when he appeared on the scene as the side show he is, these were my exact thoughts. I actually wonder if he doesn't have some form of Giantism. At any rate, watching him fight is actually funny to me: big lumbering ox - very little skill. - But don't tell him I said so.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedJack View Post
    Looks Brunn and Atlantid to me (Black hair).

    What a maroon, that bloke is Paleo-Atlantid or I'm a Dutchman.

    I read a story about Jack Dempsey wrestling a strong man named Joe Bonomo for the hell of it. Bonomo said Dempsey was incredibly strong and hard to get hold of. With proper training he would have excelled at MMA for sure. It's scary to think of what he would have been like with modern fitness training for boxing as well. Like you said he had a big frame and the reason his weight was so low for his fights was because he did so much running. With modern training methods he would have come in at more like 215 pounds and would have put the fear of God into such intimidating characters as Tyson and Liston just by stepping into the ring.
    Are you sure about the Amerindian admixture, Jamopy? He doesn't look part Indian.
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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    Sure it is. It is also, by implicative default, a "who would loose" comparison. Not splitting hairs, but stating the practicals of a statement that is using specific words that have specific connotation e.g. Physical, adept, strongest, Eurpopid subgroup, fight.
    Not really, the emphasise is on the group and not the individual. Comparisons between individuals that haven't fought will always be based on opinion, which obviously changes from person to person. But we are looking for patterns, to see which group is most over-represented amongst successful combat athletes.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    Any way this gets particularised, the boxer looses - this is not a theory: it has borne itself out since the early days of MMA and has only evolved from there. As I have said, the most adept and strongest Europid subgroup that would win in a fight - in any sense of unarmed (and armed, not so incidentally. But that's another thread...) combat - would be CM and CM admixed individuals.
    Well during the early days of MMA and NHB there weren't any boxers that participated in the sport. The only noteworthy example i can think of would be the guy who defeated Paul Eriksson before being subbed by Royce Gracie in one of the early UFC's, though i can't remember his name offhand.

    Since then plenty of cross-trained boxers have had success in MMA. The point being that both are combat arts where the strongest, toughest, and fastest fighter will win, and the 2 sports have more in common than they have differences in that respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    And that is the point. "Many different phases of combat" equals the more prepared, adept, and strongest fighter,
    MMAers are more well rounded certainly, they have to be. But that doesn't make MMA the only combat sport, nor the only criteria by which you can judge someone's success as a combatant. Boxing is certainly a combat sport. I would say kickboxing is as well, and Muay Thai, although i don't watch them as much as i watch boxing and MMA.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    with CM and CM admixed individuals being representative in overwhelming numbers in the more well-rounded combat sports. I invite anyone and everyone to look into it themselves.
    Fair point. From an initial look it does seem that CM individuals are over-represented, but which groups in particular would be interesting to see. And what groups are under-represented?

    Calzaghe looks like an Atlanto-med to me. St. Pierre appears to be predominantly Nordic, and the Klitschko brothers i believe have been analysed as being Pontid on this board before. Alpines, Danubians, pure meds, etc, don't seem to be making much of an appearance so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    That is part right but largely wrong. When one begins to train their body a certain way, it alters the very neurochemistry of the brain. In the common parlance of the combat sports milieu, it is known as the "mind-muscle connection". Depending on how one trains the body, developes very specific synaptic responses: train the body to throw good, snappy punches - the mind will imprint those movements. Teach the body to lean back and generate power from the erector spinae, lats, rhomboids, and posterior deltoids during a knee kick - the mind will imprint those movements. How the body is trained has a definite co-relation to the physicality, as well as psychology, of the combatent. But yes, some boxers can (and have) made the transition to MMA; but they are lacklustre do to the VERY specificity involved in training a boxer: they are over specialised,and it is, for the most, too late to change the mind-muscle connection - the imprint is there to stay. And certainly the reverse is true too: MMAs would fail miserably as boxers - they are too diversified to restrict themselves to fists, making themselves, ipso facto, the superior (read: stronger, more adept) fighter. And, they will, if sucessful, have CM admixture.
    Lots of fighters started out in boxing before progressing onto successful MMA careers, including the examples i gave you earlier - Mirko Cro-cop, Igor Vovchanchyn, Gary Goodridge, Jens Pulver, etc - without having any problem adapting. The theory i think you're referring to is negative transfer of skills between sports. As far as i'm aware this has never been proven to have been a problem. Most of the studies i've seen on skill and strength transfer between sports show either a neutral or positive transfer, never a negative one.

    I can't provide any evidence of successful boxers switching codes - after all successful boxers get paid a lot more than successful MMAers - but Chris Lyttle started fighting as a pro boxer after he had already established himself in MMA, and has a winning record so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    Look at it like this: when a specialforces soldier is taught opponent neutralisation, do you think they are teaching him proper jabs, right-crosses, and straight left-hands? I can tell you that they are not: there is far more Jitz than punch.
    I actually think the h2h training of special ops soldiers is a joke. In training they spend about 16hrs total on h2h, compared to the hundreds of hours they spend developing fitness, map reading ability, fire arms drills, etc.

    I think looking at the racial make up of most special forces could be illuminating when talking about discipline, endurance, and intelligence. But not particularly in terms of h2h combat.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuuT View Post
    When I first saw him when he appeared on the scene as the side show he is, these were my exact thoughts. I actually wonder if he doesn't have some form of Giantism. At any rate, watching him fight is actually funny to me: big lumbering ox - very little skill. - But don't tell him I said so.
    Agreed, he's a terrible fighter. Thoguh still not as bad as Bob Sapp.

    I have a feeling that when his boxing career starts to run dry, that Pride are going to try and snap him up and put him into one of their freak show fights. Watching Emmanual Yarborough get beaten up by a 160 lbs Japanese guy has to be one of the funniest things i've seen in an MMA fight.

    While we're at it though. Imagine if you would, that you came across his skull on an archeological dig somewhere, with no indication of it's age. What timeframe would you intially place him in?
    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
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    Re: Physically most adept/strongest Europid sub-group in a fight?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedJack View Post
    What a maroon, that bloke is Paleo-Atlantid or I'm a Dutchman.

    I read a story about Jack Dempsey wrestling a strong man named Joe Bonomo for the hell of it. Bonomo said Dempsey was incredibly strong and hard to get hold of. With proper training he would have excelled at MMA for sure. It's scary to think of what he would have been like with modern fitness training for boxing as well. Like you said he had a big frame and the reason his weight was so low for his fights was because he did so much running. With modern training methods he would have come in at more like 215 pounds and would have put the fear of God into such intimidating characters as Tyson and Liston just by stepping into the ring.
    Are you sure about the Amerindian admixture, Jamopy? He doesn't look part Indian.
    Like most of the old time heavyweights Jack Dempsey used to train himself down to fighting weight. In complete opposition to what most modern heavyweights do, who tend to bulk up before fights to get a bigger weight advantage. It makes the differences between the modern and older fighters appear even greater than it actually was.

    Rocky Marciano, for instance, used to walk around at about 230lbs between fights, and even fought as high as 220lbs. But for all of his important fights he trained himself down to about 185-190lbs.

    As for the Indian heritage of Dempsey, it's something i've heard of for almost as long as i've known about Dempsey. I believe it's mentioned in most of his autobiographies too.

    Early career

    Born in Manassa, Colorado, Dempsey grew up in a poor family of mixed Irish and Choctaw Indian origins,[2] and with little education.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey#_note-1
    I am Ripper... Tearer... Slasher... Gouger.
    I am the Teeth in the Darkness, the Talons in the Night.
    Mine is Strength... and Lust... and Power!
    I AM BEOWULF!

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