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Thread: Stages of Freedom [Hegel, Lesson on the Philosophy of History ]

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    Senior Member FadeTheButcher's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Stages of Freedom [Hegel, Lesson on the Philosophy of History ]

    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Lesson on the Philosophy of History

    I have said that the Orientals only knew that a single man was free - that the worlds of Greece and Rome knew that some were free - but that we know that all men are free, that man is free as man. These stages in the knowledge of Freedom are the division which we make in universal history and according to which we shall study it...

    Universal history goes from East to West, for Europe is truly the end of History, of which Asia is the beginning. For universal history, there is an East which exists in itself, the East for itself being something quite relative; for although the Earth is a sphere, History does not describe a circle around it but instead it has a defined East, and that is Asia. That is where the physical, external sun rises, and it sets in the West. This is why, here, the sun which rises is the internal sun of the consciousness of the self, which shines with a much greater brightness.
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, February 3rd, 2004 at 08:03 PM.
    The Phora

    "There are no principles; there are only events. There is no good and bad, there are only circumstances. The superior man espouses events and circumstances in order to guide them. If there were principles and fixed laws, nations would not change them as we change our shirts and a man can not be expected to be wiser than an entire nation."
    —Honoré de Balzac

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    Fleedwood_Mac
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    Post Re: Stages of Freedom

    Originally posted by spade1488
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, Lesson on the Philosophy of History

    I have said that the Orientals only knew that a single man was free - that the worlds of Greece and Rome knew that some were free - but that we know that all men are free, that man is free as man. These stages in the knowledge of Freedom are the division which we make in universal history and according to which we shall study it...

    Universal history goes from East to West, for Europe is truly the end of History, of which Asia is the beginning. For universal history, there is an East which exists in itself, the East for itself being something quite relative; for although the Earth is a sphere, History does not describe a circle around it but instead it has a defined East, and that is Asia. That is where the physical, external sun rises, and it sets in the West. This is why, here, the sun which rises is the internal sun of the consciousness of the self, which shines with a much greater brightness.

    Interesting,but has Hegel given a definition of the Freedom.

    I know for a fact that democracy is NOT freedom.
    Please give me a definition of freedom, a word which I have pursued but have not been able to define.


    Mackey

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    Senior Member Ederico's Avatar
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    Terms are hard to define in a manner which is not subjective to the reader and which the reader cannot refure. An absolute definition is practically unreachable when such terms as Freedom are concerned because what is Freedom to a man may not be Freedom to another.

    Freedom to me is the ability to perform tasks and express oneselves without being restricted when not infringing morality or the rights of others. That is the best definition of Freedom I can find, and I do not consider Freedom to be the ability to perform tasks and express oneselves without restrictions of any sort, because in a Society you have a responsability and respect towards others. Total Freedom of action and expression can only be reached in total isolation with oneselves without being restricted by the rights of others, since when one is alone he can do whatever he please because there is no one to offend and/or hurt.

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    Hegel's refinement (or expansion) of pantheism is interesting.

    Now I remember why I don't read Hegel raw. Summaries and commentaries of those who can actually understand what he's saying are much more palattable.

    Germans translated are difficult enough...but Kant and Hegel seem to enjoy their torturous prose.

    I would certainly oppose any Lockean-like notion that "man is free as man".

    "Natural rights" are illusory. They simply don't exist. Natural states do. Briefly, the existent animal possesses existence, the capacity to act and (higher mammals) to think. What else is there? Even the very basic 'right to self-defense' isn't a right at all.

    ALL other variations of 'freedom' are present or absent by the exertions or containment of others' 'freedoms', that is, force. All systems, collective or individual, grant or rob "rights" through this exertion.

    ----
    As I understand Hegel, he never believed in a 'Universal' history so the appearance of the word here is enigmatic. He seems to confirm this by stating "man is free as man" as an interpretive approach to history.?.

    All in all, I'm confused. But that's par whenever I actually read Hegel.

    You're gonna have to clue us in Spade. Where is this going?

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    Why is it so that originals of some IE languages are available to those, who have a cultivated mind, than to those who are proficient in the language?

    Why all translations in English tend to violate the content contained in the original texts?

    On another note, if "east" is surely there(if it exists) and India's ancient traditions, such as the Vedas, which are dismissed by the modern christian or other western ideologies, is there a relevance at all for a role of the Vedas and their core thoughts and philosophies in any western endeavour to do whatever, and we may not have a common purpose, united?

    Not that I am granting to any unity in this so-called 'east", just about the relevance of this individual vedic folk in this modern global context, especially for what is "West".

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    Post Continuing....

    That said in this globalisation-ridden world, where the substantial existential experience is polluted by capitalism, communism, liberalism, (superficial-)humanism etc, to name a few, what is the significance of searching for freedom-the hoax, if we have so many distractions, themselves waning our life-vigour. And reducing our ability to think and pursue the way our ancestors lived, be it in the Veda or the Teutons or even the Graeco-Romans, and the heritage which they left for us.

    Our shackles, today, bound us to this limited exercise where we are merely mesmerised by what was there, but cannot realise and feel, in more senses than one, the joy of their traditions.

    Why become jewish in religion and thought and lately instincts, just in order to survive?

    And I am talking about the modern Hindutva as well, which has more strains of judaism than what they are prepared to read into.

    Fleedwood_Mac raised in another thread the question of what I "believe" in, and that being similar to the jewish superstitions. I want to tell him that there are certain tales and lores which appear in the later Vedic texts such as the Vedanta and the Brahmanas. Yes, they do appear close, but the real difference lies in their respective approaches to the issues. Vedic Aryans were more naturally inclined to the questions than the rigid, dogmatic, savage-like(inhuman) approach of the Semites. No doubt that the jews were able to rip off something and since they had little understanding of the source, they perverted it to suit their intent, creating a cunning deception.

    Therefore, I think, it is wrong to associate any intelligence with the jews, they were cunning rather than thoughtful or sincere in their ways.

    There is a story in my notice to point to that.

    Anyhow, since its about freedom, its not known to me either.

    I am not free, I have thought streams which bind me to this modernism, and the day I realise that dream, I will be free.

    PS: I have started reading Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason".
    That may not be enough, since I am more in agreement with Arthur Schopenhauer's Will and Representation, which details the lackings of the Upanishads to pursue a still better and more Aryan way, but along the way, it is defeated frequently by the modern scientific logic.

    There is no west or east in my perception, there is only an Aryan, at least for my care.

  7. #7
    Fleedwood_Mac
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    Post Rahul

    Let me be spcific.

    I am an out and out Atheist.
    I do not beleive in the Veda,the Christian opinion or the jew idea or the Islam.
    Once you are one with Nature,you abide by its laws and the Law of nature is my only principle,not the law of man.
    Because I am living in the society of the many cranky artificial laws promoted by the various dogmas I will listen and follow Society's ideas.
    Once a society can rid itself of ANY ideology and dogma,we can go forward.
    Until such time THERE IS NO FREEDOM

    Freedom has no boundaries,yet ideology (any) creates these boundaries.
    Yoga is also a form of boudary,which stops you from being YOUR OWN GOD.


    Mackey

    PS: Leave your Schopenhauer and your Kant and your Jung and your Veda and your Kierkegaard
    YOU ARE YOU and make up your mind who you are, not some book wurm of the past ,you want to be, because of stupid traditions

    You were born without tradition, you are learned tradition and that is the biggest crime of your parents and your teachers.
    Last edited by Fleedwood_Mac; Friday, August 16th, 2002 at 09:21 AM.

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    Post Fleedwood...

    So you are free and unfree? Society and artificial constructs got ya down?

    And yet you offer a construct of your own, a yoga to freedom? The ideology to abandon ideology? Seems your suggesting we forego intelligence itself - rejoin the animals ... but even they obey the laws of physics and the imperatives of genes. The artificial constructs are only the highest layer of constructs. Ones real-enough also impose.

    In my estimation, the glory of Aryan thought IS its ranging speculation. When we emerge from polytheism, skip over virulent moralist monotheism, the universe opens up. And it says, "What is First Premise?" And we stammer in reply. But if some Aryan brothers are conclusive on unprovable things, such as atheism what of it? The question persists, but some will have faith. Not everyone has time and inclination to pursue the question.

    "What is First Premise, Aryan, what is Ultimate Origin, you would-be creator?"

  9. #9
    Fleedwood_Mac
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    Post Re: Fleedwood...

    Originally posted by Triad
    So you are free and unfree? Society and artificial constructs got ya down?

    And yet you offer a construct of your own, a yoga to freedom? The ideology to abandon ideology? Seems your suggesting we forego intelligence itself - rejoin the animals ... but even they obey the laws of physics and the imperatives of genes. The artificial constructs are only the highest layer of constructs. Ones real-enough also impose.

    In my estimation, the glory of Aryan thought IS its ranging speculation. When we emerge from polytheism, skip over virulent moralist monotheism, the universe opens up. And it says, "What is First Premise?" And we stammer in reply. But if some Aryan brothers are conclusive on unprovable things, such as atheism what of it? The question persists, but some will have faith. Not everyone has time and inclination to pursue the question.

    "What is First Premise, Aryan, what is Ultimate Origin, you would-be creator?"
    I am not a construct of my own.(Genes of the past)
    How can I abandon freedom of intelligence while the animals do follow the laws of physics.
    You are an animal, for heavans sake you certainly are not an Angel,created by some Godly being.

    I just ask you to become one with nature and its laws.
    Really you miss the point.

    You should pusue your inner feelings of being an idividual,looking for your own freedom.

    Faith is criminal,(like the flag and its songs)just make the time of your hearts desire,AND THAT IS FREEDOM OF THOUGHT and FREEDOM OF ACTION.
    Within the parameters of normality







    Mackey
    Last edited by Fleedwood_Mac; Friday, August 16th, 2002 at 03:35 PM.

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    Let me be spcific.

    I am an out and out Atheist.
    I do not beleive in the Veda,the Christian opinion or the jew idea or the Islam.
    Once you are one with Nature,you abide by its laws and the Law of nature is my only principle,not the law of man.
    Because I am living in the society of the many cranky artificial laws promoted by the various dogmas I will listen and follow Society's ideas.
    Once a society can rid itself of ANY ideology and dogma,we can go forward.
    Until such time THERE IS NO FREEDOM

    Freedom has no boundaries,yet ideology (any) creates these boundaries.
    Yoga is also a form of boudary,which stops you from being YOUR OWN GOD.

    Mackey
    It is wholly irrelevant to what I know. Your atheism is reactionary to the now global judeo-christianity. You confuse a 'god" with that one lord of the J-Xians. Yes, god, in its true meaning is Aryan and it cannot be anything else, for the very definition which the meaning gives us, is no to be seen in the jewish, christian or the moslem el/yhwh.

    When I say 'Dev', I imply my own senses, all is within myself, all is myself, I am a Godhead, thus. True, I am using God from the Germanic root to refer to the Proto-Aryan Dyaus(Deus).

    I am sure that some will laugh at this, thinking I am hallucinating.

    All of those who do, please refer to etymology, then come back.

    Yoga as a fad, that is downright foolish. But the absolute experience is about living through this existence with the right attitude towards the law of nature(I am uncertain of the existance of a rule book for that ). That is 'Rita' in the Vedic thought. There is nothing of a dogma or ideology to suggest what you must follow, its upto your own self.




    PS: Leave your Schopenhauer and your Kant and your Jung and your Veda and your Kierkegaard
    YOU ARE YOU and make up your mind who you are, not some book wurm of the past ,you want to be, because of stupid traditions

    You were born without tradition, you are learned tradition and that is the biggest crime of your parents and your teachers.
    My tradition is the Rita, I am trying to know what it might be, and if there is more to it.

    And no, you got it completely wrong, Mr. All Knower!

    I wasn't taught anything on these traditions. I simply prefer to call them traditions because they give us the glimpses of what was there, and faint traces still remain around ourselves. I learnt of what I see as the traditions, is that a fault of my parents?
    And teachers, I cannot say anything about them, even as the teachers taught me something else, which has proven completely wrong and baseless, if I am to relate my experiences with them.

    I am not a worshipper of any one of those which you listed along with Arthur Schoppenhauer. I am merely attempting a modern reading of the Upanishads, and Schopenhauer's views are a help to me.

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