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Thread: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

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    Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    they tend to look metrically similar, especially the heads since they are both long-headed, long faced and narrow faced.

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    AW: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    All Europids are related to each other closer than to non-Europids. Inside of the Europid spectrum Europeans being closely related and certain form groups inside of Europe more than others and even to groups outside of Europe. One major form group being those in the Aurignacid tradition of leptodolichomorphic character. An important difference might be in some cases, especially individuals, the genetic background, i.e. ancestral lines and racial specialisation.

    The exact relation can be discussed though, the only open question is the exact date of partition and the amount of influence in later times. The Nordid type is basically the same specialisation as robust Mediterranoid forms, just being more adapted to the Northern climatic area with each lower UV-exposure and a somewhat different socio-biological evolution in the times after the Neolithic revolution.

    Compare:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=59352
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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    In Stirpes Mynydd ask about one Kilian's statement:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Visigodo
    Kilian wrote: In our opinion, the Nordic race would be more related to the Mediterranean race that with the Dalofaelid. The fundamental proof would be the practical inability to differentiate both races from his skeletons.

    How exact (or inexact) is this statement?

    Is a good question but I think the statement is quite accurate.

    I gave him the following statement that I think it can be interesting.

    It is really of special importance the problem of the differentiation of the Nordids from the Mediterranids from the skeletons but as Von Eickstedt affirms: <<the Nordic crania are not easy to differ from the Mediterranean ones, specially in the prehistoric material ...>>. There is a great consensus in this point in the majority of the anthropologists that I know. As Bañuelos wrote, for example: The Mediterranean human type has great similarity with the Nordic man, only they are not similar by the color of the hair, eyes and skin, since for the rest both races are slender, dolichocepalics with elongated and narrow face and long legs in relation to the trunk.

    Two extreme examples of Gracil-Mediterranid and Nordid:



    Compare features with broad faced Cromagnids (pigmented and depigmented). In my opinion even if they have different pigmentation both are clearly related anthropologically and is the same thing in the case of the two examples posted on top.



    Example of Atlanto-Mediterranid and Nordid(Corded). Check the face's structure.



    Another example of Atlanto-Mediterranean (left) and Nordid-Corded (right). If I do not say who is the A-M and who the Nordid or if you have never seen TRoE not easy to differentiate the two types just from the pictures.



    Females comparison:



    The problem of the differentiation among the Nordid types and the Mediterranids ones in the osseous material has been manifested by Coon, who supports that: <<It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen, and that predynastic Egyptian skulls can be matched both in a seventeenth century London plague pit, and in Neolithic cist-graves in Switzerland. More dolichocephalic whites or browns are very similar in head and face measurements and form. The Nordic race in the strict sense is merely a pigment phase of the Mediterranean>>

    According to Kilian: In general, the Nordic type is stronger, possessing a few harder reliefs, though the transition between both types is fluid. If we had two cemeteries, one of which (A) belonged to a Nordid and different group (B) to Medierranids, there would no be too many difficulty at the moment of assigning A to the Nordid race and B to the Mediterranid one, but the same thing does not happen in the cases in which isolated remains appear. On the other hand, the great similarity among the Nordid types and the Mediterranids ones, not only one might, but it should conclude a common origin and, in consequence, the existence of a relationship. Everything make right this affirmation, who does not accept this fact is denying the validity of the racial science and, therefore, of the laws of the herency. Only we would have for determining the degree of relationship from the degree of similarity. Though this would turn out to be possible in some cases of formal parallelism but for the majority of the cases it is practically impossible.

    I think Kilian is absolutely right when we compare Atlanto-Mediterranids or robust Mediterranids, for exemple, with Nordids proper but when we face Gracil-Mediterranids and Nordids the thing is different an is more easy to differentiate both type from osseous material. In this point Günther explain in some of his works the possible differences that can be found among Gracil-Mediterranids and Nordids.
    Last edited by visigodo; Saturday, July 1st, 2006 at 08:08 AM.
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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by visigodo
    Females comparison:

    The left woman is a computer generated average. I cannot recall where but there is a thread about her on Skadi.
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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haldís
    The left woman is a computer generated average. I cannot recall where but there is a thread about her on Skadi.
    Yeah, there is a soap thread on Skadi.

    She's actually the Virtual Miss Germany from the facial attractiveness research project of Regensburg and Rostock universities.

    http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakulta...lish/index.htm
    .

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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    True, Meds. and Nordics do first appear to be very much alike and robust Meds. and Nordics are hard to tell apart. Both are long-headed and have similar body proportions and bones. But there are a couple differences which are worth talking about in the total picture of evolution in Europe.

    Setting aside other differences, there are two which seem important to me. First, the Nordic forehead retreats at the same angle as the line of the nose. This is a greater angle than any other European sub-race. This is a masculine trait, not an infantile one. It seems impossible to me to derive this one trait alone from a Cro-Magnon (Aurignacian) ancestor. This means to me that the ancestor of Nordics must be Gravettian or some unknown type who carried this trait. You just don't go backwards in the infantilization process. I cannot think of one example.

    Second, the eye sockets for Nordics are high and round. Show me one other round eye socket for any European sub-race. Show me any race with round sockets besides Nordics, period!

    My point is that if there was an ancestor with both a retreating forehead and high round eye sockets, wouldn't this creature be a logical ancestor for Nordics? Well, there is and you already guessed it, Neanderthal. Neanderthals also had a long head in combination with a long face as do Nordics. If Neanderthals ever do prove to be part of our genetic makeup, it wouldn't surprise me to find them most present in Nordics.

    In relation to Nordics, Meds. have less steep foreheads, and usually lower, squarer orbits. This situtation can be confusing as Europe is full of blends of these two according to what I have read. So, in the end it looks like a subjective determination if we are dealing with fossils as to if it is a Nord or Med.

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    AW: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Another example of Atlanto-Mediterranean (left) and Nordid-Corded (right). If I do not say who is the A-M and who the Nordid or if you have never seen TRoE not easy to differentiate the two types just from the pictures.
    Not all of Coon examples are "great" to say it friendly and in this case I think the Atlantomediterranid is Nordoid influenced. Seeing him in reality I wouldnt have said this is a very good example of Atlantomediterranid, even if being predominantely one.

    Females comparison:
    This very attractive morph is just more tanned and has darker pigmentation, yes, but if looking both at the morph and the two females being used, one immediately sees that they are in my opinion no good example for Mediterranid, because they have other racial traits, especially Nordid and Dinarid, too. But in their generalised manner this morph is a good example of the darker positive city variant. Positive variants of the city because of the progressive traits on the one hand, and the fact that in the cities Nordiform progressive individuals are especially in the higher classes very common, but not as often light, especially if comparing leptodolichomorphs from the countryside and the city.
    That was already noted by older anthropologists, might be the result of a combination of better survival of progressive Mediterranid strains in the cities and progressive Nordid ones on the countryside, with a combination of both always leading to the darker form because of the recessive character of depigmentation. Very often in Southern German areas Dinarid and Cromagnid etc. being involved too, but the leptomorphic form seems to be, especially in some higher social strata, sweeping, whereas the pigmentation is not to the same extend.

    The problem of the differentiation among the Nordid types and the Mediterranids ones in the osseous material has been manifested by Coon, who supports that: <<It can be shown that Sumerians who lived over five thousand years ago in Mesopotamia are almost identical in skull and face form with living Englishmen, and that predynastic Egyptian skulls can be matched both in a seventeenth century London plague pit, and in Neolithic cist-graves in Switzerland. More dolichocephalic whites or browns are very similar in head and face measurements and form. The Nordic race in the strict sense is merely a pigment phase of the Mediterranean>>
    Thats nonsense. Coon made out of all groups "Mediterranids", even if they were just Aurignacid or respectively leptodolichomorphic, at best Mediterranoid forms. If arguing his way practically all classic (leptomorphic) Europids are just "Mediterranean" and that means to overstretch the term and using it in a different manner than most others, especially the better German and generally European schools, did.

    Exactly about that v. Eickstedt wrote and criticised the English anthropologists and Coon in particular because they just "speak of Mediterranean everywhere (rough translation for getting the message) without seeing the most basic differences."

    The skulls which Coon describes here being closer to Nordoid indeed, because they are no real Mediterranids at all. They being at best "Eurafrikanid", which describes a more archaic-robust leptodolichomorphic Europid form which was the Proto-group of both Nordoid and Iranoid-Nordindid groups in particular. Iranids are no real Mediterranids though and with their robust character and some others traits quite close to Nordid. Interestingly on the bones partly more than on the soft parts, in which Mediterranids being obviously much closer to Nordid.
    Some of the respective skulls being called in the literature Protonordid or Protoiranid, just to repeat it, the border was at that time fluent and one can not easily make clear cut borders at this time with the skeletal material.

    I once read the conclusion of one author was that the Nordid female skull is partly quite close to the gracile Mediterranid one, which shows the relations between the extreme poles. Obviously, the extremes are out of discussion, the variants in between are "the problem" since not all Nordids nor all Mediterranids follow their typical to extreme specialisation of their form.

    The relation between the two is however obvious.

    Second, the eye sockets for Nordics are high and round. Show me one other round eye socket for any European sub-race. Show me any race with round sockets besides Nordics, period!
    This trait is more common in Nordids indeed, but only in a statistical sense and it would lead to a very narrow definition of Nordid since other traits being more important both for the classification and specialisation than this one. Again this would speak for a leptodolichomorphic tradition together with Mediterranids out of the Aurignacid spectrum, since its essentially an Aurignacid trait.

    Compare Cromagnid and Aurignacid/Capellid after Knußmann:


    My point is that if there was an ancestor with both a retreating forehead and high round eye sockets, wouldn't this creature be a logical ancestor for Nordics? Well, there is and you already guessed it, Neanderthal. Neanderthals also had a long head in combination with a long face as do Nordics. If Neanderthals ever do prove to be part of our genetic makeup, it wouldn't surprise me to find them most present in Nordics.
    Neandertals have no or at least no important part of the genetic make up of modern sapiens forms and if some very archaic forms being much closer in every respect than the progressive Nordid form which in various traits on the other end of the spectrum.

    In relation to Nordics, Meds. have less steep foreheads, and usually lower, squarer orbits. This situtation can be confusing as Europe is full of blends of these two according to what I have read. So, in the end it looks like a subjective determination if we are dealing with fossils as to if it is a Nord or Med.
    Thats interesting because your description would put the Mediterranids closer to the Cromagnoid spectrum than the Nordid forms, which can be even argued for some smaller and rather leptomorphic Cromagnoids of the South, but hardly for the more typical Mediterranids of today.
    The determination is indeed somewhat subjective, but the poles being clear and the main differences being finally the size and robusticity as well as certain minor traits. My problem is that I have the results of some analysis in Eastern Europe f.e., but not the EXACT information on the methodological approach to distinguish the skull examples from each other there. The basic distinction there was in the leptodolichomorphic spectrum: stenodolichomorphic/robust leptodolichomorphic Nordid/Nordoid, robust Mediterranid = Atlantomediterranid/Atlanto-Pontid and gracile Mediterranid. Obviously we are speaking here about a gradient too.
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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff

    Second, the eye sockets for Nordics are high and round. Show me one other round eye socket for any European sub-race. Show me any race with round sockets besides Nordics, period!
    The most rounded eye sockets and the most sloping foreheads are found among east Asians, Siberians and northern native Americans.

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    AW: Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad
    The most rounded eye sockets and the most sloping foreheads are found among east Asians, Siberians and northern native Americans.
    Like other traits Neandertals had too. It seems to be rather the result of cold adaptation especially if seen in combination with the other features, what would make sense if looking at the Neandertals which was just an archaic and finally failed trial for such an adaptation.
    Modern Nordids are a versatile specialisation for the Northern temperate regions.
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    Re: AW: Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Like other traits Neandertals had too. It seems to be rather the result of cold adaptation especially if seen in combination with the other features, what would make sense if looking at the Neandertals which was just an archaic and finally failed trial for such an adaptation.
    Modern Nordids are a versatile specialisation for the Northern temperate regions.

    The hobbit skull from Flores Island has huge, round orbits. She was not cold adapted, was she? As for American Indians and round orbits, that is really a generalization. I have not seen this. Most Indians I have seen had rather square orbits but these guys are quite variable so I am prepared to accept that some have round orbits.

    Agrippa, your example of Oberkassel vs. Combe Capelle compare human seperated by almost 20,000 years. The older Combe Capelle Coon uses as a proto-Med. He says all Cro Magnons were preceded by smaller Meds. in Europe. What exactly he means by this in terms of example outside Combe Capelle, I don't know.

    For Nordics, I have to fall back on the Reihengraeber skulls which I believe either you or Zyklop posted here at Skadi. These are people fresh out of Sweden and into Germany and are as "pure" a Nordic as we can expect to find.

    Cro-Magnons do have a relationship to Meds. Cro-Magnon--Corded--Med. but not exactly in that line. In the Eastern Med. region about 8-10,000 years ago we have plenty of skulls which resemble reduced Cro-Magnons and are Meds. Atlanto-Meds and Cordeds have some sort of relationship with Meds. As I say, Coon thinks Meds are ancient people.

    There is evidence that 5% of the European genome is non-sapiens archaic. Besides Nordics, Borrebys show evidence of Neanderthal influence. It could be that a Med.-Neanderthal cross went into the Nordic genome. It could be that a Cro-Magnon-Neanderthal cross is what the Borrebys are. Not a 1 to 1 cross but the 5% mentioned. The Med. I mean is not the Med. found 8,000 years ago but an earlier form as Coon mentions. The Cro-Magnon-Neanderthal means Aurignacian, not Bruenn which would be Gravettian.

    Somehow, anthropologists have to account for retreating foreheads and round orbits in Nordics. Maybe this is simply a Gravettian thing as evidenced in Predmost and so may be present in some American Indians since Gravettians went both west and east.

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