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Thread: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

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    AW: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    I meant Neandertals and Mongolids with the cold adaptation obviously, and the form of the orbits can be discussed in relation, it might be a non-adaptive trait or at least un-related to climatic specialisation of any sort too.

    As I said its just a secondary statistical traits, in the sense of occuring more often in Nordids.

    There is evidence that 5% of the European genome is non-sapiens archaic.
    There is no proof for that, only speculation and results which final interpretation is not done so far. Just assume it would be true, this 5 percent would have been bred out already, I think thats quite sure, real phenotypical traits of importance didnt survive, they were mal-adapted anyway.

    Besides Nordics, Borrebys show evidence of Neanderthal influence. It could be that a Med.-Neanderthal cross went into the Nordic genome. It could be that a Cro-Magnon-Neanderthal cross is what the Borrebys are. Not a 1 to 1 cross but the 5% mentioned.
    Why the Borrebys? They are in various ways almost the opposite of a Neandertal, they are just coarse and brachycephalic Cromagnoids which have even a high skull. The low skulled Cromagnids would be in that way closer to Neandertals even, though a true influence is not present in neither of them. If you want to look at potential candidates, then look after Skhul and Qafzeh, such forms didnt survived and being even considered just sapiens by some, though I think its an archaic form which is neither fully sapiens nor Neandertal.

    The Med. I mean is not the Med. found 8,000 years ago but an earlier form as Coon mentions. The Cro-Magnon-Neanderthal means Aurignacian, not Bruenn which would be Gravettian.
    You mean f.e. Combe Capelle or not?

    Agrippa, your example of Oberkassel vs. Combe Capelle compare human seperated by almost 20,000 years. The older Combe Capelle Coon uses as a proto-Med. He says all Cro Magnons were preceded by smaller Meds. in Europe. What exactly he means by this in terms of example outside Combe Capelle, I don't know.
    Forget Coon on that, he's totally unreliable. What one has to recognise is that there were different ancient form type or you might even call them races in early sapiens, they came from different areas and being differently specialised with the Cromagnoids being a more Northern, better cold adapted form. You could have compared the old of Cro Magnon with Cappelle too, I know they are being not the same age, but its typical for Cromagnoids that they didnt changed too much and the skull reconstruction of Oberkassel was better for the purpose.

    For Nordics, I have to fall back on the Reihengraeber skulls which I believe either you or Zyklop posted here at Skadi. These are people fresh out of Sweden and into Germany and are as "pure" a Nordic as we can expect to find.
    The Reihengräber-skulls, even the early ones, are not that homogenous, I saw various depictions and even a sample myself and you can generally say there being two forms:
    Nordid proper and a robust Nordid form with weaker or stronger Cromagnid influences, approaching "Anglo Saxon" variation. Especially the later have more square orbits obviously.

    However, I might show you some comparisons, first a Combe Capelle vs. a classic Neandertal, not especially the details:


    Next a basic Cromagnid skull if you prefer this before Oberkassel:


    Typical to extreme Skandonordid skull:


    Neolithics (Bandkeramiker, Corded, Bell Beaker):


    Reihengräber, the image is from Visigodo, I think the above is pred. Nordid, below Dalofaelid:


    Balanovo skulls, Corded type, note the great similarity to basic Nordid forms:


    Great round orbits are also common among Negrids:
    http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/bc-327-lg.jpg

    Australid skull:
    http://www.chennaimuseum.org/draft/g...s/avsskull.jpg

    So the basic relations of the orbits is Aurignacid vs. Cromagnoid. One can see on this that most groups are rather mixed.
    However, its a minor difference, but compare this robust Mediterranid with the Cromagnoid, both from Tarragone:


    This somewhat more true for the North it seems, however, since all the forms being heavily mixed and the pattern was probably never that strong and always varied, the pattern is not that clear, just statistically.
    Many Nordids have rather rectangular and low, many Dinarids high and rounded orbits, it really varies. However, you dont have to refer to Neandertal influence to explain it on any level, since it quite widespread. The typical very low and rectangular orbits seem to be in Europe mainly the result of Cromagnoid influences to me.
    If there are possibility to explain the adaptive advantage of either low-rectangular or high-rounded orbits, I dont know, but beside the superficial similarity at the first look the whole region around is very different between the high-rounded orbited sapiens and neanderthalensis.
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    Re: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    Quote Originally Posted by pro-Alpine View Post
    they tend to look metrically similar, especially the heads since they are both long-headed, long faced and narrow faced.
    I see nordic(neonordic) as a BLEND between the ''Fair variation'' of Cromagnid
    ( related to Dalonordics / Paleonordics) and the gracile agriculturalists ''proto-eastmediterranids'', that are also involved in formation of many others modern groups ( Indids, Capsians, Orientalids..minor Influence between Uigurs, etc ..).The question that must considerated
    in the gracilization of Europeans is the agriculture.Agriculture was brought by gracile people, adapted for both desert climates and less masticatory activity.
    The less masticatory volume is associated to long faces in agriculturalists, compared with wider faces in hunter-gatherers.Agriculturalists were also less muscular and more fragile.Gracilization/progressiveness is a kind of structural '' degeneration '' in formation of modern European types.Agriculture spread in Europe trough Danube and mare mediterraneum, and still nowdays it´s influence is more visible in this two regions.Med europens were largely influenced by levantine presence during prehistorical and historical times,and also exposed more time to the selective pressure of agricultural habits that levantines brought with them associated to a ''warm'' mediterranic climate. This genetic flux, and geographic peculiarities helped to dilute the phenotypical differences between euro-meds and eastern-meds that were two races appart.

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    AW: Are Mediterranids related to the unaltered Nordids?

    In fact long faced individuals could have a strong masticatory apparatus, in fact they can even have a stronger one than low-broad faced. Much more important for that might be the length of the skull and muscles on the sides of the skull. However, one could argue that under very extreme conditions hunter and gatherers might have on average a stronger masticatory apparatus if being broad-robust faced. One shouldnt forget that even before agriculture great numbers of leptomorphic-narrow faced individuals and a variety of forms existed, just less in the North - rather because of the problems with cold.
    The later very gracile and reduced forms fit better in what you said.
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