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Thread: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid Sub-Races

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    Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid Sub-Races

    When speaking about the Mediterranid sub-race, it can be divided into four pure sub-types: The West Mediterranid, the Atlanto-Mediterranid, the East Mediterranid, and the Pontid.

    According to Coon, the Mediterranid people were all of Neolithic stock.

    The Gracile Mediterranids (including West and East?):
    The earliest Neolithic invaders of the southern fringe of Europe were brunet Mediterraneans of small to moderate stature and moderate head size. Unaltered representatives of this type or group of types may be found today from Crete to Portugal.
    The Atlanto-Mediterranids:
    Toward the end of the Neolithic period, the western Mediterranean countries were invaded by seafarers of a tall, exceptionally long-headed Mediterranean variety; some of these invaders passed through the Straits of Gibraltar, whence they also invaded the British Isles and Scandinavia. The accompanying pictures show modern derivatives of
    this sea-borne type.
    The Pontids:
    Along the northern and western shores of the Black Sea are found, among other populations, brunet Mediterraneans of a generalized type, called Pontic by the Russian anthropologists, who are usually of medium to tall stature and who seem related on the one hand to the Atlanto-Mediterraneans and on the other to the long-faced Mediter-
    ranean prototype of Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Inland from the Black Sea shores they are found sporadically in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube. They also seem to form an early population level in Serbia and Albania.
    Their precise archaeological history has not yet been traced, and their relationship to the Danubian invaders of central Europe at the beginning of the local Neolithic is unknown. They do not, however, conform closely to the physical type of the early Danubians as known to us by a small series of skeletal remains. Much more work needs to be done in southeastern Europe before their historical position and relationships can be established.
    Nowadays genetics allow us to know the origin of different populations. So some of the supposed Neolithic populations of for example Spain or Italy, show to have an almost unaltered Paleolithic origin, though being mainly Mediterranid. So could some kind of specialisation process establish the following path?

    Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Western (Gracile) Mediterranid

    What about the Nordid sub-race? According to Coon, it was a Mediterranid depigmented type.
    The Nordic race is a partially depigmented branch of the greater Mediterranean racial stock. It is probably a composite race made up of two or more basic Mediterranean strains, depigmented separately or in conjunction by a progressive evolutionary process. As has been demonstrated on plates 9 and 10, it is impossible, as some European
    anthropologists believe, to derive a Nordic directly from a dolichocephalic Upper Palaeolithic ancestor of Brünn or Crô-Magnon type. Reduction of these overgrown races produces a result which is quite un-Nordic morphologically as well as in constitutional type. It is the author's thesis that the Nordic race in Europe was caused by a blending of the early Danubian Mediterranean strain with the later Corded element. At the
    present time both Corded and Danubian elements may be isolated, while other Nordics preserve the blended form. Nordics in eastern Europe, Asia, and North Africa may have been formed by separate recombinations or simple depigmentations of comparable Mediterranean strains, or by invasions of these regions from an European or West Asiatic depigmentation center.
    Did the Nordid sub-race follow a similar but parallel process to the Atlanto-Mediterranid one?

    Cromagnid => Skandonordid

    Did both the Nordid and Mediterranid sub-races have a common ancestor that was already not a Cro-Magnid?

    ........................................ ....................| => Skandonordid
    Cromagnid => Dolicocephalic Leptophorm => |
    ........................................ ....................| => Atlantomediterranid

    Or as Coon says, did the Nordid sub-race descend from Mediterranids?

    Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Skandonordid

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    Re: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races.

    pontids fall into the atlantomediterranid category

    ........................................ .......| => Skandonordid
    Cromagnid => Dolicocephalic Leptophorm => |
    ........................................ ....................| => Atlantomediterranid

    Or as Coon says, did the Nordid sub-race descend from Mediterranids?

    Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Skandonordid
    i think its more plausible the both developed from the same source (palaeatlantids) not one from the other

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    Re: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races.

    Atlanto-Mediterranids and Pontids are usually seperate categories.

    And yes, Nordids and Mediterranids obviosuly share an origin.

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    Re: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaico
    Did the Nordid sub-race follow a similar but parallel process to the Atlanto-Mediterranid one?

    Cromagnid => Skandonordid

    Did both the Nordid and Mediterranid sub-races have a common ancestor that was already not a Cro-Magnid?

    ........................................ ....................| => Skandonordid
    Cromagnid => Dolicocephalic Leptophorm => |
    ........................................ ....................| => Atlantomediterranid

    Or as Coon says, did the Nordid sub-race descend from Mediterranids?

    Cromagnid => Atlantomediterranid => Skandonordid
    Lothar Kilian (a really excellent scholar) explain in his work “Zum Ursprung der Indogermanen” that during the Upper Paleolithic, the totality of the population of Europe was formed basically by two basic types: a) Brünn and Combe Capelle, that we must consider of narrow forms, and b) the Cro-magnon and Oberkassel types, having much more robust and broad forms, among them, undoubtedly some blends were produced. This point would constitute the first differentiation. Later the second process of differentiation was produced: The depigmentation of both types in the North. By this way the fair Dalofaelids and Nordids were formed in the Central and Nordic Mitteleuropaand in the Southern Europe and North Africa the Berberids and the Mediterranids. In the following illustration Killian offers a schematic representation of this process:





    In consequence, the place of origin of the Nordid race would have been in Mitteleuropa and it would be necessary to say the same for the Dalofaelid race. His vicinity provoked with the course of the time that constants blends were produced among them, which led to the formation of mixed Nordid-Dalofaelids types. The case of Mediterranids and Berberids turns out to be analogous. As for the formation of the <<brachycephalic axis> of v. Eickstedt :





    that can be traced from the end of the last glaciation, has led to the formulation of numerous hypotheses, always in relation with the Alpinid race, which they have been catalogued rather well by Coon. Nevertheless, we cannot approach here this question since not concierne directly to our topic but Agrippa has a reasonable theory about the formation of the Alpinids from Cromagnids.


    Both extreme forms can be found from the Upper Paleolithic, though still, partially, in archaic forms. Both forms are for the whole Central and Western Europe, coming up to the north of Africa (see illustration 52). Combe-Capelle's finds in France (illustration 53), as well as those of Brünn (illustration 54,) and Predmost (illustration 55,) in Moravia are typical the narrow forms, whereas the broad forms would be represented in Cro-Magnon's deposits in France (illustration 53 and 54, centre), Oberkassel, near Bonn, in Germany (illustration 53, c) and Afalou bou Rhummel the illustration 52 (+), illustration 55

    The Nordid crania would have been formed already in the Aurigniacian times. To this period would belong Unter-Wisternitz's finds in the southern Moravia, Galley-Hill in England, Brünn (ilust. 54, and of Combe-Capelle (ilust. 53, d). The observable differences are concerned exclusively to a major or minor archaism, which would indicate former relations also with the cranium of Predmost, Moravia, (ilust. 53 to; 55, I centre). The Nordid race would have been formed in the Aurigniacian times in the Central and Nordic Europe (evidently this means the Nordic Mitteleuropa) from more primitive forms as those of Combe-Capelle, Brünn and Predmost, under the hard selective effects of the last glaciation. Therefore the Nordid race would be autochthonous of this territory.

    Killian wrote: In our opinion, the Nordic race would be more related to the Mediterranean race that with the Dalofaelid. The fundamental proof would be the practical inability to differentiate both races from his skeletons. Both races originated from the same type of narrow forms. Part of this original type would have suffered a process of depigmentation during the last glaciation in the surroundings of the ices. Therefore, the Nordid race would have originated in the Northern Europe, from this original dark type of narrow forms, which was kept inaltered in the south, and that today we know as Mediterranean race. A parallel process would be suffered by the broad Cromagnid type, whose northern branch was depigmented whereas the southern groups would be kept with the dark original pigmentation. This process would have marked the separation of the fair Dalofaelids of the dark Berberids men(ilust. 64). The genetic relation among the narrow forms and among the broad ones would have a primary character, being the later depigmentation behalf of each of them a secondary process. In consequence, the fair narrow type (the Nordid race) must have had a historical development more close to his dark brother (the Mediterranean race) than to the fair broad type (the Dalofaelid race). The transformation of the narrow types in broad and vice versa it should have produced after numerous mutations, since the differences that they present are too essential. On the contrary, the process of clarification of the skin, the hair and the eyes probably only it will have needed as a whole a few mutations.
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    AW: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races.

    Question would be if there were always some Aurignacids/leptodolichomorphic variants in the older, pre-warming, pre-Neolithic Nordeuropid spectrum, what seems to be true latest for the Mesolithicum.
    For this Northern variants one can discuss continuity of Aurignacid forms in the predominantely Cromagnoid spectrum of the North with just additional influences from South, or the Southern influences being central for the later formation of the leptodolichomorphic group. So did Aurignacid always live in the North or where they coming in the Mesolithicum and Neolithicum. That the later happened is obvious, but I think there was continuity too, so there were various sources for modern Nordids: Surviving Northern Aurignacid strains, leptomorphised Cromagnids and Mediterranoid influences.

    Going further back its obvious that there is a clear form relation between Aurignacid and all modern leptodolichomorphics, with Nordid and Atlantomediterranid/Atlanto-Pontid being particularly close, but to Iranid-Nordindid as well.

    Lothar Kilian (a really excellent scholar) explain in his work “Zum Ursprung der Indogermanen” that during the Upper Paleolithic, the totality of the population of Europe was formed basically by two basic types: a) Brünn and Combe Capelle, that we must consider of narrow forms,
    =~ is being called Aurignacid or Capellid in various systems in prehistoric populations.

    b) the Cro-magnon and Oberkassel types, having much more robust and broad forms, among them, undoubtedly some blends were produced.
    = Cromagnoid spectrum.

    This point would constitute the first differentiation. Later the second process of differentiation was produced: The depigmentation of both types in the North. By this way the fair Dalofaelids and Nordids were formed in the Central and Nordic Mitteleuropaand in the Southern Europe and North Africa the Berberids and the Mediterranids. In the following illustration Killian offers a schematic representation of this process
    Yes, there were always blends between this two basic forms, not just in the North, but in the South also, like the mentioned North Africa. Whats crucial is, that the Nordid type can be never considered a cold-variant, whereas the Cromagnoids are closer to a cold-adapted variant, with keeping still a rather versatile and high performance character, unlike the heavily Borealised-reduced forms like Lappoid.
    So one has to ask whether the depigmentation happened in the Cromagnoids first and was transmitted to more Northern Aurignacid forms later or a wider variation of both existed and Aurignacid forms survived in more Northern-colder areas during the Ice Age and after it, depigmented more or less at the same time or shortly after.

    Its true, the two forms being essentially very different in their skull-proportions, but one has to include mixture into the bill. F.e. in Central Europe Cromagnoid-Mediterranoid mixture took place for sure and could have produced variants one would consider being Nordid, especially if the necessary selection was strong.
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    Re: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races.

    Very interesting. So summarising, we could speak about two different Europid types in the Paleolithic Europe, the Aurignacid/Capellid, ancestor of the Europid Leptodolichomorphs, and the proper Cromagnid, ancestor of the partly unreduced Cromagnids and of the reduced Cromagnoids.

    So what is the relation between these two? I mean, do they represent different waves of human colonisation in Europe or do they share a common ancestor that was the first one to colonise Europe?

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    Sv: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races

    Please, explain why some mediterranids are white while some resemble oriental and middle eastern people.

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    Re: Sv: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael
    Please, explain why some mediterranids are white while some resemble oriental and middle eastern people.

    If someone is darker then the other, that's just caused by adaptation to a warmer climate.

    And I have never seen southern Europids who facially resemble Near Eastern peoples.

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    Sv: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races

    I have seen southern italians, though not very many, who facially have almost arabic features. They are few however, and my guess is they look like that because their ancestors mixed with arabs.

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    Re: Sv: Origin of the Mediterranid and Nordid sub-races

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalseal
    And I have never seen southern Europids who facially resemble Near Eastern peoples.
    Ever been south of Naples? :negroid :arab

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