View Poll Results: Are Sami white?

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  • Yes, Sami are white

    124 42.32%
  • No, Sami are not white

    105 35.84%
  • I am unsure

    64 21.84%
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Thread: Are Sami White/Europid?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granraude View Post
    From what I understand, Samis and Finns were considered to be the same in Norway. Finnmark = land of Finns/Samis.
    That was in old days, but not nowadays.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Granraude's Avatar
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    Oh, I know. Should have added "in the olden days" when I wrote that =P

    We have a Sami at work. He could pass as a Pole.

  3. #153
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    They always were whites but with a higher level of Mongoloid blood than is usual. In spite of this they are Alpinoids descended from UP/Mesolithic Baltic people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    They always were whites but with a higher level of Mongoloid blood than is usual. In spite of this they are Alpinoids descended from UP/Mesolithic Baltic people.
    I was just reading Coon about this. The reason I mention a book written in 1939 is because he used tons of metrical data gathered by people in the previous century who measured everything and thought that was the path to knowledge in anthropology. He points out traits and characters which really do not sound Alpine or even European. If they are purely European then genetic drift must have played a huge role in their genesis.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    I was just reading Coon about this. The reason I mention a book written in 1939 is because he used tons of metrical data gathered by people in the previous century who measured everything and thought that was the path to knowledge in anthropology. He points out traits and characters which really do not sound Alpine or even European. If they are purely European then genetic drift must have played a huge role in their genesis.
    No one denies that Lapps have some Mongoloid blood, its just been exaggerated in the past. Makku Niskanen evaluated Finns as either westernmost NE Europeans, or easternmost NW Europeans. However specific Uralic trait frequencies of skull and teeth, and unquestionable North Asian admixture, complicate this.

    The widespread assumption that all of the Uralic-speaking people are at least partially “Mongoloid” has its origin in Friedrich Blumenbach’s 200-year-old claim that two Saami (Lapp) skulls and one Finnish skull resembled one Mongol skull. The Mongoloid affinity of the Finno-Ugrians was accepted as scientific truth by those who had actually never seen the people in question because Blumenbach was a prominent scientist of his time and the linguists were looking for the Uralic homeland to be somewhere in the east (Kilpeläinen 1985, Kemiläinen 1985, 1993).

    Interpretations of findings of physical anthropologists and geneticists have been until nowadays strongly influenced by this
    assumption of eastern affinities of the Finno-Ugrians. For example, Karin Mark (1970) calculated what she calls “Mongolidheitsindex” (Mongoloid-index) from facial features to estimate the proportion of Mongoloid element of Finno-Ugric populations. Also, many prominent geneticists (for example, Guglielmino et al. 1990, Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994, Piazza et al. 1995) assume that the original homeland of the Uralic people was northwestern Siberia; the ancestral Uralic people were Mongoloids; the Samoyeds are the purest representatives of this ancestral type; ancestors of the Baltic-Finns and the Saami arrived in the west along the Arctic coast and mixed genetically with the Europeans. These researchers (mainly Piazza et al. 1995) consider the Finns, whom they find genetically typical Europeans contrary to this assumption, as an example of a discrepancy between the language and the genes.

    These old assumptions are incorrect. In reality, all Finno-Ugrians of Europe (the Baltic-Finns, Saami, Volga-Finns, Permian-Finns, and Hungarians) are phenotypically and genetically typical Europeans. The Ob-Ugrians (Khanty and Mansi) of western Siberia, who are genetically poorly known are phenotypically European-Siberian Mongoloid intermediates. Only the Samoyeds are phenotypically and genetically predominantly Siberian Mongoloids.

    The Baltic-Finns and, as a surprise to many people, also the Saami exhibit clearly North European phenotypes. Epicanthic eyefolds, flat faces, coarse straight hair, and other Mongoloid traits are not encountered among them more frequently than among other Europeans (Coon 1939, Brues 1977). Strong cheekbones and flaring zygomatic arches of many Finno-Ugrians, commonly and erroneously assumed to be Mongoloid features, are actually inherited from European Cro-Magnons (Coon 1939, Niskanen 1994b). These two “Paleo-European” features have survived especially well among the Finno-Ugrians of northern Europe because, as the archeological evidence presented by Zvelebil (1986) indicates, the subsistence transition from foraging to farming occurred more recently and with a lesser influx of immigrants in these marginal regions for agriculture than further south. Most other Europeans have been farmers for so many generations (eating soft bread, porridge, etc.) that their cheek bones (which provide attachments for the masseter muscle) have reduced in size in comparison to other parts of their facial anatomy.

    The light coloring of the Baltic-Finns and Saami reflects their long history of inhabiting northern Europe. North Europeans are the lightest colored people of the world because they have lived in northern latitudes the longest. Therefore, natural selection has had the longest time to produce the light skin color adapted to low levels of ultraviolet radiation. The hair and eye colors are predominantly light because the region’s first permanent inhabitants’ gene pool (the total of all genes of a population) included by chance a large number of alleles (variants of genes) producing light-colored phenotypes. The light-skinned North Asians do not have light-colored hair and eyes because the first permanent inhabitants of East Asia did not have alleles producing color in their gene pool. Natural selection and founders’ effect are, therefore, the most important factors behind the distribution of most biological traits. Sexual selection has had far less influence on the geographic distribution of these traits than most people assume. The mate selection among “natural” populations is based more on ability to procure necessities for life, give birth and raise children, and create and maintain alliances between groups and families than on particular physical traits, such as eye color or nasal profile. Due to these reasons, most marriages are arranged in many societies because the mate selection was considered too important to be left to the young in question.
    An examination of average Mongol-index values reveals that they increase toward the east. The inhabitants of the British Isles (12.9%) have the sharpest facial profiles and the Buryats (90.0%) of the Lake Baikal region have the flattest faces. The Volga-Finnic-speaking Mordvians (39.4%) and Austrians (32.4%) have the flattest faces in Europe, but the Finns (25.4%) and the Saami (25.5%) are close to the European average (24.9%). The Ainu (52.0%) have the least amount of facial flatness among the Asians, although their faces are considerably flatter than those of European populations. Moderate facial flatness may be an ancient feature of inhabitants of the Pacific coast of Asia because the Polynesians originating from this region are not particularly flat-faced either. It appears that the extreme facial flatness of the classic Mongoloid people originated in the inland of northeastern Asia.

    The Oriental-index values also increase toward the east. The Basques are genetically the most western (12.4%) and the Ainu are the most eastern (92.8%). Therefore, the Ainu cannot have an ancient Caucasoid origin, regardless of their relatively sharply profiled faces. The Finns (25.1%) are quite average by European standards (European average is 22.8%) and genetically less eastern than the Greeks (33.4%), Saami (42.2%), Permian-Finnic-speaking Komi (30.1%), and Volga-Finnic-speaking Mari (34.1%). The relatively high Oriental-index of the Saami (42.2%) is much higher than their admixture estimation (18%) based on genetic distances by Cavalli-Sforza et al. (1994), therefore, it is most likely a result of the markers used. The indices of the Komi and Mari have probably increased during the last 1,500 years due to the westward expansion of the Turks. The Samoyeds’ Oriental-index (58.0%) reflects their Northwest Asian geographic location and both western and eastern genetic ancestors.

    These indices reveal that the relative eastern components (especially the Oriental-index) increase slowly from the Atlantic to the Ural, but rapidly east of the Urals; the Finns (representing the Baltic-Finns) are typical Europeans; not a single Eurasian population is morphologically and genetically 100% western or eastern; the Mongol- and Oriental indices correspond roughly. This rough correspondence is the result of random genetic drift. According to the fossil evidence, the first permanent inhabitants of Europe had sharply profiled faces and those of East Asia had flat faces. Descendants of these founders inherited these facial features independently from genetic traits used to calculate the Oriental-index values.

    It is worth noting that the Finno-Ugrians of easternmost Europe are quite typical Europeans (see Liptak 1980) although they (especially the Komi) are the immediate western neighbors of the Nenets Samoyeds, who exhibit predominantly Mongoloid phenotypes and eastern genetic traits. This finding indicates that the genetic roots and, therefore, areas of origins of all the Finno-Ugrians of Europe were in Europe.
    These craniometric analyses demonstrate that the Finns (and presumably other Baltic-Finns) and Saami (although they form their own subset within the European set) possess North European craniofacial configuration with more than average amount of Paleo-European (Cro-Magnoid) features. This finding indicates that the Baltic-Finns and Saami (as well as their Scandinavian neighbors) are indigenous people of northern Europe and not recent immigrants from elsewhere (Niskanen 1998).
    https://www.academia.edu/5066847/The..._Point_of_View

    Those quotes are from Niskanen. V. Moiseyev found the Lapps, Udmurts and Lowland Mari to lean towards Siberia and C Asia in one run, and within a specific Uralic cluster in another.

    To answer this question, we must examine the second vectors, CV 2 and PC 2,which are orthogonal to the first ones (figure 3). Here, the Uralians are highly spe-cific rather than intermediate. The correlation between these vectors is lower thanthat between CV1 and PC1 but also highly significant (r = 0.69, p < 0.001, see table 4). Both vectors set most Uralic groups apart from others. As seen from tables 2 and 3, the «Uralic» trait combination includes an extremely high frequency of infraorbital pattern type II, and low frequency of sphenomaxillary suture (traits most tightly correlated with PC 2), a long and narrow brain case, low face and very small nasal projection angle (traits with the highest loadings on CV2). Notably, in certain Ob Ugrian series, especially in the Khanty from the Lower Irtysh (due to the bpreservation state of this series, only few cranioscopic trait were examined and the group was excluded from the statistical analysis), as well as in the Salym and Balyk Khanty, the nasal bones are even flatter than in some Tungus groups, which areamong the most flat-faced and flat-nosed in the world. However, the face in the Khants is much more profiled than in the Tungus (figure 4).

    This combination, which may be described as «Uralic», is quite unusual on a world scale. Utmost lack of proportionality in the expression of «eastern» and«western» traits speaks against the purely hybrid nature of the Uralic groups. The groups with the most pronounced «Uralic» trait combination are Ob Ugrians (an extremely strong «Uralic» tendency seen in Moksha Mordvinians may be partly due to the small sample size). Interestingly, this tendency is the strongest in Khants, not in Mansi, as previously believed (Bunak 1924; Davydova 1975). The gap separating the Salym and Balyk Khanty from others is rather wide and hardly incidental. Both Samoyed groups (Selkups and Nenets) and most Finnish populations, too,turn out to be cranially «Uralic». Because in some Uralic speakers the «Uralic» tendency is less expressed whereas the western (in the case of Finnish groups) and eastern traits (in the case of Nenets) are more expressed (figure 2), hybridization with Europeans and Asians, respectively, must have been a more important factor in their history than in the history of Ob Ugrians. The Middle Ob, then, appears to 249be the focal area where the ancestral trait combination was the least affected by admixture. This finding fully agrees with linguistic data (Haidu 1985).
    https://www.academia.edu/3589590/ORI...GICAL_EVIDENCE

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