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Thread: On Australia's Future: Was Hitler Right?

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Secondly, isn't it a sad turn of events when such noble sentiments as 'loyalty' and 'comradeship' and 'love of kin' have to be translated into a sordid modern expression from the gutter?
    Well I don't think that "loyalty", "comradeship" and "love of kin" came into it. And as for my use of the term "bitch", get off your high horse Oswiu, if my "gutter" speak offends your delicate sensibilities so, then just put me on your ignore list, because I won't change for you. I certainly have no intention of becoming as anal as you seem to be. Such trash talk can be effectively a tool for conveying emotion (disgust, outrage etc) and to create a response. I never swear without purpose. Too bad if you don't like it.


    It's horrendously simplistic to look at it that way, for a start off. Modern Australians, used to their independence and confident in their identity, cannot really put themselves in the head of those who went to Flanders in 1914. To you now this looks like 'being under the thumb' but people back then wouldn't have pictured it like that - you're being anachronistic, projecting present realities into the past.
    I'm not trying to put myself in the head of Aussies who chose to go to fight in the WWs any more than you are by suggesting that they went due to loyalty etc. Only, quite frankly, I'm in a better position to judge as an Australian with a Grandfather and Great Grandfather who went, and someone who's had long discussions with her Grandmother about how things really were in those days. The majority of Australians even back then considered themselves psychologically independant of the Brits. Unlike the rather unusual Australians that you tend to get on these "racialist" discussion forums, most Australians don't feel such a strong kinship with the Brits. We are very different and I resent any implication that we should feel such great love or sense of comradeship with them. Since the Brits failed to back us up in WW2 Australia has mostly felt an even greater inclination to resent them. Hence most important alliance transferring to the US.


    you're being anachronistic, projecting present realities into the past.
    Wrong. You're mistakingly thinking that Australia just loved Great Britain in the past.


    I think you are right, those are values in itself and that the Aussies being related to the Brits and should feel a certain sense of kinship is reasonable.
    Sure, I've always maintained that there is a certain degree of kinship, but these feelings are entangled by a love/hate relationship, resentment and a striving of Australia to establish independance from those who've cast us off and exploited us in the past. Look, you can say all you like that because there are blood ties that the Aussies should always be there to back up the Brits, but the fact is that those Brits who immigrated to Australia to become Australians and forge our history left Great Britain for a reason. People that are so loving, loyal and patriotic of their homelands don't just leave it for new lands.

    For those very small minority of Australians that wish to hold onto some sort of fantastical notion that we are just another part of Great Britain - they are deluding themselves.


    However, the bad thing about this is not that they felt and behaved in a quite decent manner, what they did, but that this honourable behaviour and great moral was being exploited in the war, finally agains the interests of white European Australians and the British people themselves, as everyone should see now. For what did they finally fought for? Just for the plutocratic Oligarchy in Great Britain and the USA, for sure not for their people and kin and its future...
    Exactly.


    People in densely populated areas tend to be rational, controlled, orderly and disciplined. Just look at Singapore, Japan, Hongkonk, Malaysia. For the opposite look at Australia, the U.S.A. or Russia. While those traits probably do not guarantee "better" people I nevertheless prefer to associate with them than with folks who think they own the world because they never encountered any territorial or societal limits.
    And as for this little nugget of wisdom.... I'm not even going to pay it any mind as it is so obviously the ramblings of a shit stirrer. And citing Malaysia??? I doubt you've ever been there then. I don't even know how you could state that Australians think they own the world..... you've obviously never been here either. Oh, BTW, no matter what country you're talking about - everyone encounters societal limits.

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    THere's nothing wrong with swearing. It has its uses. But such talk as I was refering to, with its origins and evocation of forced homosexuality and humiliating submission, is hardly the way to discuss British - Australian relations.

    Why are you so anxious to propagate Australian resentment to Britain? Even if it were true, what good would it do you?

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Wrong. You're mistakingly thinking that Australia just loved Great Britain in the past.
    To clear things up - and I think you'll agree with me here - Australia loved the Empire. Australia loved the British people, who we're basically sons of. We loved the Monarchy. We hate their politicians far more than we despise our own.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    I can't see how I'm doing that [contributing to greater fragmentation].
    It seems to me that leaving a fairly good Germanic community because it's not all it should be, when a person has the power to help it improve and become what it should be, contributes to the fragmentation. I'm not saying you increase fragmentation by discussing the problem. Far from it. Discussing the problem is how you can help improve our community so that it can become what it ought to be. Kudos to you for it — and a personal thanks, for that matter.

    Leaving would be the mistake, in my opinion. The right course, I think, is to help fix the problem. The way I see it, this thread you've started here is doing that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    Pride is over-rated in my opinion. However, I love my Australian forefathers because they were tough, strong and withstood great adversity and hardship.... yep, it was sink or swim in those days, and the new Aussies swam.... and their descendants are still swimming.
    Maybe pride was the wrong word. I'm talking about loving and cherishing one's heritage for its greatness. It sounds to me like that's what you're talking about, too.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    See, I have no interest in bending anyone's will.
    You can't talk to someone without doing it. Every post you make here changes the way people see their world, even if only in a small way. What they did not want, they begin to want. What they wanted, they begin to question the value of. That's just the way communication works.

    I'm not talking about mind control or domination or manipulation or anything like that. And I'm not trying to say that everyone here is a sheep. Germanics just aren't that way. But the fact remains that communication changes the way people think. If it didn't, we wouldn't do it.

    Maybe my words were a bit over the top.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    You have every right to be upset at your fellow US-Americans selling out and taking up Germany's past and present cause by ditching their own country and people.
    I've seen folks from all over the Anglosphere do it here. Not just Yanks.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    I don't think that Australia was oppressed by the Brits so much as that Australia was Great Britain's bitch before WW2 and the USA's bitch after it. We are still the US's bitch.
    What's the difference?

    And by the way, I hardly think that need be true of our present situation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    I don't know how you got "well, I know that Germany was on the right side in WWII, so I kind of have to be ashamed of my people for fighting against her." out of my posts.
    Maybe your statement about the Aussies in the war in Africa seemed so similar to others I have seen that were along these lines that I got mixed up. It was late for me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    I'm not ashamed of the Aussies who fought in the WWs at all!! I don't go to ANZAC marches and get all emotional on these days for nothing you know! For those men and women who volunteered for service I have great respect, gratitude and sympathy.
    I'm glad to hear it!


    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    Anyway, what I was getting at..... I've heard you say before that you're English Leofric. Well, even though I'm of English heritage too, I only consider myself Australian. Full stop. I, of course, in some ways still identify with the Poms..... but I don't identify with being one. I mean, I still bake Yorkshire Pudding with my roasts, "Toad in the Hole" for tea, and I love Cherry Bakewell Tarts and Trifle, but that's about the extent of it.
    I never said I was British. I'm not. I'm American. But I am English.

    Are the British English less English for not living in Angeln? Of course not! So I am no less English for not living in Britain. (neither are you.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    So to all the Anglo boys out there : Don't be upset, if you ever go away to war, I'll still bake you ANZAC bikkies!! http://www.anzacday.org.au/miscellaneous/bikkies.html

    Okay, you've twisted my arm.... you get 2 boxes of ANZAC biscuits then. hehe
    Thank you very much!



    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    Geez, you Americans are sooooo greedy!
    It runs in the family!

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    I never said I was British. I'm not. I'm American. But I am English.
    You can't. You are (belonging to the group of) English speaking (people). Sometimes, the English speaking people are collectively refered to as "Anglo-Saxons". But as this term has historical connotations, and OTOH quite a great many of the modern North Americans and Down Underers trace their pedigree back to none-Anglo-Saxon ancestors, I'd say the term ESP is less confusing and "politically" more correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Are the British English less English for not living in Angeln? Of course not! So I am no less English for not living in Britain. (neither are you.)
    The British English are of course no less "English" for not living in Angeln, but quite certainly they are much less Anglisch for not living there.

    And you are - that's quite sure - not as English as an Englishman is, because you don't live in Britain (speak: England). Trust me.

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    But such talk as I was refering to, with its origins and evocation of forced homosexuality and humiliating submission, is hardly the way to discuss British - Australian relations.
    Do you know.... I actually didn't know that "bitch" used in that context has connotations of homosexuality. I always think of the song "Smack My Bitch Up"!! (Which is charming, of course. ) In any case, you know what I was getting at.


    Why are you so anxious to propagate Australian resentment to Britain? Even if it were true, what good would it do you?
    I'm not "anxious" to "propagate" anything. (Very manipulative language there Oswui. ) The resentment was/is already present. I've only started other threads attempting to discuss it, in order to come to a better understanding of, in view to resolution. But this isn't the right place to do that, I realise now, because the Aussies around here are in denial that it exists. Don't think it exists? Just have a chat with some older British immigrants (things are generally a bit better now) and see how they were discriminated against when they moved to Australia. I was chatting to an 80yr old English migrant the other day at the shops, who moved here in her 40's, and she told me all about how she and her family were given a hard time at times. My paternal Grandfather's family came from England just before he was born, and his older brother's still had accents, they too were harrassed at school. I can still recall at school an English boy (a new immigrant) moved to our town and was in my class.... he and his sister were teased virtually non-stop for being so pale and wimpy. Truth is, it was because they were English. The English are stereotyped as being whingers, sooks and not bathing very often over here, even now (well, not so much the not bathing one anymore! LOL). But then, on the other hand, they're stereotyped as having great senses of humour (able to laugh at themselves too, which is a HUGE virtue).

    Don't get me wrong.... its not like everyone hates English people here.... they get a bit of a hard time, just like all migrants..... BUT they're not considered to be just like us. And Aussies don't generally feel obligated to love them because of our roots. If a pommie immigrates here and he's a good person, (and can put with the piss being taken out of him, like it is with everyone else) then he'll be liked eventually. If he's an asshole, no amount of sharing ancestral roots endear him to the locals.

    So that clears up why I started that "Love/Hate Relationship With England" thread..... why has this thread come to revolve around whether or not the young Aussie men and women that chose (for those that did choose) to go to fight in the WWs did so out of love and kinship with the Brits or not? It has just escalated to this point simply because I agreed with the following opinion of Spjabork's.....
    My grandfathers both fought in that war, too. They too saw terrible things happen to other people. And I'm sure, neither my grandfathers, nor yours were ever asked if they wanted to fight in that war.
    And I maintain my position..... a lot of Aussies volunteered for service, sure, but if they had have known what they were getting themselves into, or actually knew why the war was really being fought, many wouldn't have made that decision. It should essentially have been Europe's war. We never should have been involved.

    Propaganda is a powerful thing.....

    (and I was nasty to Rhydderch because it annoys me when smug so and so's, whose lives have never been touched by war, throw their weight around concerning why soldiers did the things they did. Its easy to be a know-all from the outside.)

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    I never said I was British. I'm not. I'm American. But I am English.

    Are the British English less English for not living in Angeln? Of course not! So I am no less English for not living in Britain. (neither are you.)
    I'm not English. I'm Australian. I'm not of England, I'm of Australia. I've never even been to England before, and yes, I think that matters! LOL There are huge differences between England and Australia. Having English ancestors and eating trifle for dessert doesn't make me English. I think you have to be raised in a country to claim nationality of it. Even then..... those of non-NW European heritage, or not of aboriginal heritage, in Australia aren't entitled to claim Australian nationality either, as far as I, and many others, are concerned.

    I asked my Dad just this morning if he considers himself English, if only in part, because of our English background, and he looked horrified! "We have a lot in common with them.... but we are still our own people." he said. I agree.

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bridie
    I think you have to be raised in a country to claim nationality of it.
    Why would it bother your ethnicity where your feet touch the ground on this planet? Of course in seggregation it is a lot harder to maintain his/her ethnicity, and mostly different developments in society will take place between the mother country and the colony, one can not demand that everyone just sticks to the old values, they will change.
    If people emmigrate, because they want this seggregation, they can't overcome it, and it is indeed questionable in how far they are still part of their old ethnicity.
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Why would it bother your ethnicity where your feet touch the ground on this planet? Of course in seggregation it is a lot harder to maintain his/her ethnicity, and mostly different developments in society will take place between the mother country and the colony, one can not demand that everyone just sticks to the old values, they will change.
    Well, I guess to answer this question I first have to know how you would define ethnicity Jager.... Do you mean just racial background? Or would you incorporate culture into that? Maybe its just about linguistics?

    Nevertheless, I wasn't referring to racial or linguistic background when I said that I don't identify myself as English, as I am obviously the same as the English in this regard (yet I'm still not English - if you get what I mean).... but culturally some attitudes and ways of life are quite markedly different between Australia and England. My memories and the construction of my character would have been different had I been raised in England. So how could I count myself as English? Eg, my love of the Aussie outback, the bushland, the water holes, the open, golden paddocks would most likely have been a love of the rolling green hills and such, had I been raised in England. This love of Australia that I hold dear in my heart is part of who I am.

    Here in Australia, I can spot an English person a mile off. Racially they're the same as us, but there are still differences that are hard to put your finger on. The way they dress, mannerisms, hairstyles.... hmmm I don't know, they're just different.

    I was in the US years ago (when I was 20) and I can recall being asked so many times when waiting for buses etc by perfect strangers that had never heard me speak "what country are you from"? Most would guess either England or Ireland before I could even answer. Now this surprised me... how could they tell that I wasn't American? So I asked a few of them, and every time the response was the same.... "you just look different". No one could really say why.

    I've often wondered what it must be like to grow up in and live in a country that I knew my ancestors from centuries and centuries before had lived in. Would I feel more connected to the land? But then, I feel very connected to the land here in Australia. Would I feel more of sense of belonging? Well, I don't know. See, I couldn't even imagine living in an area, knowing that my ancestors had lived and died there, and walked the same piece of the earth as me.

    I guess it must be hard for someone who's not an immigrant or a "colonial" to understand what it's like to not live in an area their ancestors for centuries, or possibly even thousands of years, lived and died.... it must be difficult to comprehend the struggle to forge a new identity, separate from those in the "motherland".... to move on....

    And I personally don't even feel a connection with English history, even though my family members as early as 80 years ago lived there (and were native English). I really feel that my history began when my family/ancestors emigrated from England (and my great-grandma on my mum's side was German - so Germany too). Although, I think that many other "colonials" feel differently from me in this regard.

    In the former respect though, perhaps us "colonials" understand each other in a way that others never could.

    But how all of these things are supposed to make "colonials" retards is beyond me....
    Last edited by Bridie; Friday, June 30th, 2006 at 05:45 PM. Reason: I said "latter" when I meant "former"

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    Re: On Australia's future: Was Hitler right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spjabork
    And you are - that's quite sure - not as English as an Englishman is, because you don't live in Britain (speak: England). Trust me.
    English is American.
    .

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