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Thread: How Open Minded Are You?

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    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    Sv: Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn
    Open-mindedness tends to result in tolerance, so it includes tolerance towards ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures that differ from your own. Open-minded people don't meddle with other people's affairs and don't tell them how they should live their lives.

    I think what often creates confusion is that open-minded people do in fact frequently have certain values and morals that can significantly differ from what they are willing to tolerate. I think that penal laws are more often than not a very bad way to deal with undesired social phenomenons. They are a futile attempt to suppress the symptoms instead of dealing with the underlying social causes. They often aggravate the problems. The most dangerous people are those who are well-meaning but lack understanding.
    About the first part i can say that i'm the complete opposite. I cannot tolerate "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" which i find to be degenerate or sick (i repeat myself one heck of alot i know, but english is not my native tounge, i only know so many synonyms). I have no problems with accepting what i would consider normal differences, it's the abnormal ones that i can't accept.

    I also think that there needs to be laws that criminalize unwanted elements in a society. Laws together with morality.

    What meassures would you recomend to deal with these "undesired social phenomenons"?

    "The most dangerous people are those who are well-meaning but lack understanding."

    Understanding different "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" you mean? I wonder what you mean by understanding in this pretext, i understand that there are people with what i would call abnormal/different opinions/view points/values and what more. Are you saying that i am dangerous for not beeing empathical towards these people? For me it merely means that i am a person of strong convictions and principles.

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    Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    You Are 8% Open Minded
    You may be surprised to hear that you're not very open minded... and a little judgmental.
    You tend to dislike others that are different from you.
    While you may be open to a few new things, you don't reach far beyond what you believe.
    And it's likely that you don't even want to discuss different points of view!
    ME NE FREGO

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    Senior Member Hrafn's Avatar
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    Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    You Are 36% Open Minded

    You aren't exactly open minded, but you have been known to occasionally change your mind.
    You're tolerant enough to get along with others who are very different...
    But you may be quietly judgmental of things or people you think are wrong.
    You take your own values pretty seriously, and it would take a lot to change them.

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    AW: How Open Minded Are You?

    You Are 0% Open Minded

    You may be surprised to hear that you're not very open minded... and a little judgmental.
    You tend to dislike others that are different from you.
    While you may be open to a few new things, you don't reach far beyond what you believe.
    And it's likely that you don't even want to discuss different points of view!

    M.,

    What a surprise...
    "Ich will den Frieden - und ich werde alles daransetzen, um den Frieden zu schließen. Noch ist es nicht zu spät. Dabei werde ich bis an die Grenzen des Möglichen gehen, soweit es die Opfer und Würde der deutschen Nation zulassen. Ich weiß mir Besseres als Krieg!
    Adolf Hitler nach Beendigung des Frankreich-Feldzuges in einem Gespräch mit seinem Architekten Prof. Hermann Giesler, Giesler: "Ein anderer Hitler", Seite 395



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    Re: Sv: Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorburn
    Open-mindedness tends to result in tolerance, so it includes tolerance towards ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures that differ from your own. Open-minded people don't meddle with other people's affairs and don't tell them how they should live their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotpatrik
    I cannot tolerate "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" which i find to be degenerate or sick ... I have no problems with accepting what i would consider normal differences, it's the abnormal ones that i can't accept.
    Very interesting conjunction of opposing ideas. To me the most interesting thing is the reason this opposition exists in the first place.

    The first notion would have been unthinkable prior to the breakdown and destruction of community in the wake of the French Revolution and the Industrial Revolution. Open-mindedness is the spawn of the open society, where in theory all things are possible, and the individual is an atomic unit whose ties to his or her community and folk are secondary.

    The second notion is a throwback to an earlier time, when the community into which a person was born established norms of behavior, and there was much less room for subjective choice. Individuals were not atomic units deciding which morality, which behavior, which values to adopt from some sort of cultural or anti-cultural menu.

    The ultimate irony is that this second notion now requires the existence of the first in order to exist itself - without it, the anti-communitarian ethos now prevalent throughout Europe and the former colonies would simply stamp it out.

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    Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    My score on this quiz is 28%, if that is of any interest. I think his quiz has not even a remote, symbolic value on one's actual degree of open-mindness, that is, how he is prone to take into account different doctrines and opinions. One may have very strong views on moral and similar topics, but it is precisely because he is open-minded, has studied various doctrinal positions and is thus allowed to make a synthetic, rational and complete decision on this topic.

    For example, I am bothered by seeing two men kissing, not because I don't accept the reality of homosexuality, but because taking in account all I have read, heard and seen, in a true open-minded attitude, I must consider it as a disgrace and not repress my instinctive feelings of disgust, which in this case tell the truth about this act.

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    AW: Sv: Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotpatrik
    About the first part i can say that i'm the complete opposite. I cannot tolerate "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" which i find to be degenerate or sick (i repeat myself one heck of alot i know, but english is not my native tounge, i only know so many synonyms).
    To refer to the original test. I can't see any degeneration at

    - You have friends that are very rich - and friends that are very poor.
    - You don't think any one religion is better than any other. (Every culture has it's own best religion)
    - You aren't bothered by public nudity. (This is absolutely natural)
    - You don't think less of someone who is on welfare. (Everyone could come into this situation)
    - You could potentially be friends with anyone, even someone you may dislike intensely right now. (I experienced this already in the past, but that's not the point. I can't see any degeneration or morally corrupt here)
    - You are open to debating your beliefs at almost any time, with anyone. (We are doing this right now)

  8. #38
    Senior Member Patrioten's Avatar
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    Sv: AW: Sv: Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunwheel
    To refer to the original test. I can't see any degeneration at

    - You have friends that are very rich - and friends that are very poor.
    - You don't think any one religion is better than any other. (Every culture has it's own best religion)
    - You aren't bothered by public nudity. (This is absolutely natural)
    - You don't think less of someone who is on welfare. (Everyone could come into this situation)
    - You could potentially be friends with anyone, even someone you may dislike intensely right now. (I experienced this already in the past, but that's not the point. I can't see any degeneration or morally corrupt here)
    - You are open to debating your beliefs at almost any time, with anyone. (We are doing this right now)
    We have already covered that issue some posts back, now we are having a general discussion on the matter.

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    Re: Sv: Re: How Open Minded Are You?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotpatrik
    About the first part i can say that i'm the complete opposite. I cannot tolerate "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" which i find to be degenerate or sick (i repeat myself one heck of alot i know, but english is not my native tounge, i only know so many synonyms). I have no problems with accepting what i would consider normal differences, it's the abnormal ones that i can't accept.
    First, what is considered "normal" by mainstream society is always changing. The ancient Greeks had little problems with men-boys relationships. The medieval societies burnt witches and atheists on the stakes. The Brits lead wars to defend the opium trade.

    You get your personal idea of what is "normal" by your life experiences, in particular by the society in which you grew up. And this is very relative. If you would have grown up in ancient Rome or in a Detroit Ghetto among blacks, your values would be very different from what they are now.

    Secondly, "normal" is just what most people at a given time and at a given place do. A normal distribution. It doesn't tell us anything whether what they are doing is morally right or good or whether it should be that way. If one looks at history, it's sometimes rather idiotic, in particular when it comes to religion, philosophy, art, reason, civil rights, or freedom. Anything that requires a deeper comprehension.

    Most people are neither extremely smart, nor extremely brave, nor extremely altruistic, nor extremely independent -- and that's probably good that way, because otherwise society would be rather unbearable and unpredictable. They are usually good in surviving and in taking care about their family.

    However, some people do differ in that their behavior doesn't quite fit into that scheme. Their behavior is statistically abnormal, but it's always these few that make the difference and that initiate changes. If everybody always did what is considered "normal", there would never be progress. We would still be in the stone age. As George Bernard Shaw said,
    Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.
    So it's the unreasonable and abnormal people that are of particular value. Those that are not understood by the normal people. Those that are hated by the normal people because they differ. They thus should enjoy protection by the law, because the more unhindered they can develop their ideas and the more unhindered they can try to convince the masses, the normal people, of changes, the quicker progress will be made.

    The masses are always very reluctant to accept changes; they are set in their ways, they don't think deeply about anything in fact. They live mostly by traditional values. That's also good and necessary because traditions contain successful behavior that has survived the test of time. Only if they can be convinced that accepting an abnormal behavior is more beneficial than keeping the traditional behavior, it will become, eventually, the normal behavior. And there biological dispositions provide a border that can't be crossed. That's a protection mechanism that guarantees that not every absurdity can establish itself.

    Thirdly, that there are abnormal people is totally normal. It's a fact of nature in all aspects. There have always been homosexual people or people that went to prostitutes, as a matter of fact. There have always been people that turned out drunkards or drug addicts. There have always been people that preferred other cultures and life-styles over the mainstream culture and way of life. So one shouldn't be worried too much about this. It's totally normal that these abnormalities exist. They stimulate the mainstream and, depending on the issue, either contribute to a deeper understanding why certain traditions are necessary, thus strengthening them (take the issue of paedophila), or lead to progress by conflict with unjustified behavior (you do no longer get stoned to death for adultery).

    I also think that there needs to be laws that criminalize unwanted elements in a society. Laws together with morality.
    Fine, as long as I decide who is unwanted.

    What meassures would you recomend to deal with these "undesired social phenomenons"?
    That really depends on the individual issue in question. In general I recommend to change people perceptions by education instead of throwing them into a dungeon.

    Understanding different "ideas, beliefs, opinions, values, life-styles, preferences, and cultures" you mean? I wonder what you mean by understanding in this pretext, i understand that there are people with what i would call abnormal/different opinions/view points/values and what more. Are you saying that i am dangerous for not beeing empathical towards these people? For me it merely means that i am a person of strong convictions and principles.
    I don't really know you but you appear to be a person that is concerned about our people and our heritage and not only about his immediate personal advantage. So you are rather an abnormal person in my book and that surely makes you dangerous. I would thus recommend that you are granted the right to freedom of expression, so that you can freely convince others of the benefits of your world-view in order that our society may enjoy progress.
    This is a placeholder for a signature.

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    Sv: How Open Minded Are You?

    I'm wondering if we have missunderstood one another on some aspects of this discussion, or if it's a matter of our opinions differing.


    "However, some people do differ in that their behavior doesn't quite fit into that scheme. Their behavior is statistically abnormal, but it's always these few that make the difference and that initiate changes. If everybody always did what is considered "normal", there would never be progress. We would still be in the stone age. As George Bernard Shaw said,

    Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.

    So it's the unreasonable and abnormal people that are of particular value. Those that are not understood by the normal people. Those that are hated by the normal people because they differ. They thus should enjoy protection by the law, because the more unhindered they can develop their ideas and the more unhindered they can try to convince the masses, the normal people, of changes, the quicker progress will be made."

    I am in no way an anti intellectual and i'm strongly pro knowledge and intelligence, but to me this does not equal homosexuality, pedophilia/drug use or any other abnormal difference as i put it in my previous post.

    Quite the opposite, i think the two are of completely different natures, the first being intelligence and intellectual thinking, a quest for knowledge, and the other being simply degenerate behaviour and having nothing to do with the progression of our societies, or more correctly, nothing to do with a positive progression of our societies.

    When i read your post i get the sense that you put a correlation mark between these two, that everyone who is different from the masses, either by possessing an "abnormal" intellect/intelligence or by having a mental disorder such as homosexuality or doing drugs is equally important for the progression of a society.

    In today's society intelligence isn't valued highly, instead the average good citizen who doesn't questions or think for him/herself is the ideal which is promoted, together with liberal ideas about morality and what is right and wrong, mass consumption and the destruction of our own heritage and ourselves as a people.

    This is what the media, our government and powerful lobby groups/special interest groups with shady agendas wants to shove down our throats, and they are very successful in their undertaking unfortunately. This is not a positive progression of our society, it is a degeneracy and a developement that is anything but desirable.

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