View Poll Results: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

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  • Indo-Aryan Languages (like Sanskrit, Hindi.)

    9 19.15%
  • Indo-Aryan peoples

    6 12.77%
  • All Indo-European peoples

    13 27.66%
  • Only the Northern Europid peoples

    13 27.66%
  • Other (please write)

    6 12.77%
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Thread: What Comes to Mind When You Hear the Term "Aryan"?

  1. #41
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    Re: AW: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    All that things come to mind in my case, but primarily (original) Indo-Iranian (people) and (the original) Indoeuropeans in general. I voted vor the later. So, if hearing that word, I think about Late Neolithicum-Bronze Age and early Iron Age Indoeuropeans in general and those which lived from Eastern Europe to India and Turkestan in particular.

    If thinking about modern people I might think of some people "looking similar to ancient Aryans", which means a certain racial trait combination, though I know that they were rather variable in all times, certain characteristics seem to have dominated. But even then I would use different terms and think the term is not very useful in a modern context other than thinking about the racial and spiritual base of this ancient people. There are just modern people being closer or further away both by their ethnic culture and racial variant, but there is no direct modern successor in my opinion. In a way the view on the the ancient ones can be idealised, being an ideal in itself, but then again thats rather a construction and abstraction from the original.
    I find this a rational and respectable position; and, true to form, psychologically in line with your speciality. However, I wish to re-emphasize the point that one cannot engage in an etiological debate by way of etymological linguistics alone; or by way of modernity. Nor can one reduce the saliency of the point that, most surprisingly, has been utterly lost in the maladies of this thread--the point, again, is this: That Germanic individuals and groups such as Nietzsche, Heidegger, Jung, and the National Socialist party of the Third Reich (who understood the difference between being of a race, in contradisticntion to being of Race) utilized the term all over the place, ought to be enough for the likes of anyone in this forum to have a healty inquisitiveness about it: it's almost as if the entire spiritual and psychophilosophical aspect of the exemplar of National Socialism has been lost in the ether. To be of a race is a biologism; to be of Race is a spiritual and psychophilosophical state of being. When looked at from this perspective, their is no construction or abstraction other than that constructed or abstracted by, to use your words, direct modern successors: the "hyperboreans" of the racialist movement--the union of the priesty and warrior castes, as was also predicted by a GermanoAryan.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

  2. #42
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...
    What of it? It's a good example of how a word can be traced through all branches of the IE family, demonstrating all the linguistic processes specific to each branch. Something TII hasn't done [and yet gives me negative reputation points for daring to ask for it! ]
    But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple!
    Within Indian tradition, you're right. But to apply that to me and my own out in the Hesperides...
    There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.
    Hmm. We'd better get straight once more for the record, what exactly you are arguing for. Maybe I'll agree with parts of it, maybe I'll think the same thing, but call things by different names?
    It is getting a bit pointlessly 'pass the ball', so lets get deeper and see what we mean, eh.
    I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.
    Not at all, I've looked at Thulean II's stuff, and found it wanting. Please fill the gaps.

    Tripartite social structures are not so obviously essential a part of Celtic, Germanic, and any other IE folk you care to mention's society, as some people think. Dumezil was an intelligent fellow, but was writing in the dawn of this science.

    Eire may have a very different etymology to what you two think. Celtic lost initial P-, and so we could be looking at a *piwerio- type word = "the fat [i.e. luxuriant, rich] land". Sounds far more convincing to me. And when your Aryans found the island there were plenty of dark little trolls left in it from the good old days, so why would they name the island after the race or noble personal attributes of the incomers, seeing as how the earlier peoples remained on the whole? Doesn't make sense.
    You're using a very poor bit of evidence here, why not drop the name of Erin, and concentrate on the adjective aire? But that would still demand some serious linguistic treatment. Outwardly, aire seems a good cognate of Germanic ar/Ehre etc. but who knows. The first lesson of historical linguistics is not to trust the seemingly obvious.
    If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.
    That's that.
    But if I see people going on about something that I see as absurd, I shouldn't keep silent. Especially when the consequences so affect my people in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thulean Imperial Inquisitor in his negative reputation point
    I very seldomly do this but I really must now. This is absurd. And your lack of understanding of what is Indo-European is clear.
    Can you explain yourself here? Seems a bit of an overreaction to me. Is it very hot where you are today, making you all irritable?

  3. #43
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Suut
    And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...

    What of it? It's a good example of how a word can be traced through all branches of the IE family, demonstrating all the linguistic processes specific to each branch.

    Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin cnsbrnus, cousin : com-, com- + sbrnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]

    Quote:
    But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple!

    Within Indian tradition, you're right. But to apply that to me and my own out in the Hesperides...

    I've not applied it to you; quite the contrary. Read my respone to Agrippa.

    Quote:
    There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.

    Hmm. We'd better get straight once more for the record, what exactly you are arguing for. Maybe I'll agree with parts of it, maybe I'll think the same thing, but call things by different names?
    It is getting a bit pointlessly 'pass the ball', so lets get deeper and see what we mean, eh.

    I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.

    Quote:
    I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.

    Not at all, I've looked at Thulean II's stuff, and found it wanting. Please fill the gaps.

    No problem:
    http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aryanosophy/?tab=s


    ... And when your Aryans found the island there were plenty of dark little trolls left in it from the good old days, so why would they name the island after the race or noble personal attributes of the incomers, seeing as how the earlier peoples remained on the whole? Doesn't make sense.

    This is akin to saying that there are no historical examples of what initially begins as placation of a new master's mores and folkways ending up as the predominant mores and folkways of a later population.

    You're using a very poor bit of evidence here, why not drop the name of Erin, and concentrate on the adjective aire? But that would still demand some serious linguistic treatment. Outwardly, aire seems a good cognate of Germanic ar/Ehre etc. but who knows. The first lesson of historical linguistics is not to trust the seemingly obvious.

    This is a bit of a back-peddle; but you couldn't be more correct from your own vantage point (of this being a purely linguistic matter). Moreover, that which is convincing is not necessarily true--it is merely convincing. Your missing out on an opportunity to read between the lines: you have been given the means.

    Quote:
    If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.

    That's that.

    But if I see people going on about something that I see as absurd, I shouldn't keep silent. Especially when the consequences so affect my people in general.

    The only negative consequences that would result is if "your people" subscribed to your nescient perception of a term and capricious objectivity. After all, it is, for you, a purely linguistic matter, no? Again, my reply to Agrippa is pertinent here.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thulean Imperial Inquisitor in his negative reputation point

    I very seldomly do this but I really must now. This is absurd. And your lack of understanding of what is Indo-European is clear.


    ... Seems a bit of an overreaction to me...

    Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning; the only thing that stopped me is that this polylogue is going on (ironically) in 'the Lounge'.
    Last edited by SuuT; Friday, June 16th, 2006 at 01:10 AM. Reason: muddled form/separated quotes
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

  4. #44
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin cnsbrnus, cousin : com-, com- + sbrnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]

    Very nice, now let's see that for Ir. aire, Lat. ars, Germanic *ar- [or whatever it would be in the Common ancestor of Ehre and Ar].
    And what of it. I don't see Afghan esoterists jumping on this word cousin to make up a term for their spiritual revivalist group. As that's what you're proposing in analogy; "hey, these other IE speakers also have a word from the root swesor! Let us call ourselves cousinians!"
    You have a fetish for the East, and for Deutsch thought of two short generations in millenia of Germanic history.
    I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.
    WhaT are crickets and DOA?
    Okay, you've given me a resource to look through, but haven't told me what it is I should be looking for there and why.
    If you and TII truly are privy to great lifechanging knowledge hereto restricted to the few, then there's no reason to go round proclaiming it as obvious truth without explaining yourselves to your fellows.
    This is a bit of a back-peddle; but you couldn't be more correct from your own vantage point (of this being a purely linguistic matter). Moreover, that which is convincing is not necessarily true--it is merely convincing. Your missing out on an opportunity to read between the lines: you have been given the means.
    I don't understand what you're getting at here.
    Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning
    That's rich from someone who's disabled the system for himself!

    Hmm, I wonder sometimes, are you hinting occasionally here that your modern Aryan idea is admittedly a construct, on some rather shaky historical foundations, but in itself a good workable thing that, if applied [and perhaps it might be necessary to promulgate a white lie to achieve this], would be for the greater good? That wouldn't be such a bad thing. Perhaps I could go along with that. But in the end the truth will out, and will come back with a vengeance on those who hid it.

  5. #45
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    I'll continue to dialogue with your salient points:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Suut
    Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin cnsbrnus, cousin : com-, com- + sbrnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]


    Very nice, now let's see that for Ir. aire, Lat. ars, Germanic *ar- [or whatever it would be in the Common ancestor of Ehre and Ar].
    And what of it.

    If you are willing to follow me on this, and not be reactionary, there is the shortest lesson possible at the end to demonstrate the depth and breadth of your obdurance.

    Quote:
    I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.

    WhaT are crickets (Metaphor: Silence due to a lack of understanding) and DOA (Dead on arrival)?

    Okay, you've given me a resource to look through, but haven't told me what it is I should be looking for there and why.

    You ought (shoulds and oughts are mutually exclusive) to be looking for the answers/evidence that you have thus far requested.



    Quote:
    ... you have been given the means.

    I don't understand what you're getting at here.

    You have been given the means to answer your own questions.

    Quote:
    Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning

    That's rich from someone who's disabled the system for himself!

    Were 'Lounging', but please, try to stay on point. But I will answer: I can (and have) receive(d) both negative and positive reputation points. I have disabled the ability of others to view it as I, like many others here, find it a meaningless and illusory democratic audit. The truth of its even being here is that Administration surely understands the need to placate the democratic imprint of the 'mass', be it Germanic or otherwise.

    This is becomming tiresome, Oswiu. I cannot be twisted into an inapplicable dialectic; nor am I succeptible to the ego-tease of fallacious reasoning/logic. I have the patience of a god (yes, this is hyperbole); but also the indifference of one, should I elect to be so.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

  6. #46
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    I have the patience of a god (yes, this is hyperbole); but also the indifference of one, should I elect to be so.
    Got the right avatar, anyroad. THe Lion's had enough of lying down with the Lamb, then?

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