View Poll Results: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

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  • Indo-Aryan Languages (like Sanskrit, Hindi.)

    9 19.15%
  • Indo-Aryan peoples

    6 12.77%
  • All Indo-European peoples

    13 27.66%
  • Only the Northern Europid peoples

    13 27.66%
  • Other (please write)

    6 12.77%
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Thread: What Comes to Mind When You Hear the Term "Aryan"?

  1. #31
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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    If you would be so kind as to let me know where and when I can be clearer, just ask.
    Let's start here, then;
    That a "European" Aryan is something of a contradiction in terms (for you) is no argument against it; but, rather, a condition of the existence of Arya Europa.
    What the hell's that supposed to mean?
    Incidentally, it would be profound of you
    Odd way of saying "Perhaps you should..." Profound? Doesn't that mean 'deep'? How would I be deep if I examined myself?
    to fix your suspicious eye to the mirror: the man with nothing to hide--has nothing to give. Et Visa Versa.
    How gratifying it must be to talk in fancy epigrams all the time. Shame they don't really mean much at the end of the day. Stick a bit of redundant Latin on the end though, and it'll be alright.

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    First thoughts are blond hair, blue eyes, tall, strong, smart - the Master Race, but I know it also means Pan-European, including the Middle-East and northern India from my classes in Anthropology.

    I think this may have been true 1000's of years ago, but not now. Take the Middle-Easterners, most of them have come from a miscegenation of "whites" and African female slaves during the times of the Barbary Coast pirates.

    I guess I just find it too hard to equate some Middle-Easterners to Europeans I guess, maybe it's just my dislike for some parts of their culture that gives me a negative view of their people in general, but I like to think that Aryanism is more of a European thing now.

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    Wink Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    No it hasn't.
    Give me an undeniable example of it in Celtic, Italic, Germanic and Slavonic. You can't. Even where you do find a reflex of the root in question outside the eastern sphere, it's still not an ethnosocial self-identifier.
    It has.
    I will give you examples of it in Celtic (Gaulish), Latin (you asked for Italic, I'm sure it can be found there), Germanic but not Slavonic as I have very little knowledge of their languages. The following showes that Ar/Ir has been used in the west for a long time, even before there was a West.
    • Anglo Saxon: Ár = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
    • Gaulish: Arico
    • Irish: Aire
    • Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
    • Latin: ars = Art
    Not to forget Ireland as Ir is the same as Ar.

    Now to more Indo-European words related in meaning and/or etymology.
    • Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
    • Old German: era
    • Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
    • German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
    • Dutch: eer
    • Persian: áriya
    • Icelandic: aðall = nobility
    Anyway, I'm sure you saw all this in my article which I have already mentioned in this thread. You did read it, didn't you?
    "I have reached these lands but newly
    From an ultimate dim Thule
    From a wild weird clime, that lieth, sublime,
    Out of SPACE — out of TIME
    ."
    Edgar Allan Poe


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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Oswiu:

    Are you interested in knowing what ought to come to mind when someone uses the term Aryan?

    Bold, proud, prophetic; and moraline free. And perhaps most importantly, Contradiction as a natural law. Here are some words of a GermanoAryan:


    "I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous—a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite.— Yet for all that, there is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no "believers"; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy: you will guess why I publish this book before, it shall prevent people from doing mischief with me ... I do not want to be a holy man; sooner even a buffoon ... Perhaps I am a buffoon ... And in spite of that or rather not in spite of it, because so far nobody has been more mendacious than holy men—the truth speaks out of me.— But my truth is terrible: for so far one has called lies truth.— Revaluation of all values: that is my formula for an act of supreme self-examination on the part of humanity, become flesh and genius in me. It is my fate that I have to be the first decent human being, that I know myself to stand in opposition to the mendaciousness of millennia ... I was the first to discover the truth by being the first to experience lies as lies—smelling them out ... My genius is in my nostrils ... I contradict as has never been contradicted before and am nevertheless the opposite of a No-saying spirit. I am a joyful ambassador like no one before me, I know tasks of such elevation that any notion of them has been lacking so far; only beginning with me are there hopes again. For all that, I am necessarily also the man of calamity. For when truth enters into a fight with the lies of millennia, we shall have upheavals, a convulsion of earthquakes, a moving of mountains and valleys, the like of which has never been dreamed of. The concept of politics will have merged entirely with a war of spirits, all power structures of the old society will have been exploded—all of them are based on lies: there will be wars the like of which have never yet been seen on earth. It is only beginning with me that the earth knows great politics."


    36 years later--WWII: clear enough?


    Some people just know, Oswiu--there is very little need for such people to ever question themselves. In fact, that is often a condition under which they do not turn out well.

    This is not a riddle. It is an opportunity to not be reactionary.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    When I hear the word Aryan, I think of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

    By extension, I later think of their linguistic descendants.

    Thulean Imperial Inquisitor's article on the word is the best I have read to make me think anything other than the foregoing. As a result of reading his article when he first published it here at Skadi, I have often considered the word applicable only really to certain groups of linguistic descendants of the Aryans — in every case a minority of the speakers of any given IE language. However, I still first and unhesitatingly use it to refer to the speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Thulean Imperial Inquisitor's article on the word is the best I have read to make me think anything other than the foregoing.
    Since for me this is a purely linguistic matter, it's a shame TII hasn't even attempted to demonstrate how the list of similar sounding words he gives is a list of genetically related words. And I'd want to see him go through all the required soundshifts and everything for each branch. Even if he had done that, we would still be no nearer to proving that the original PIE speakers used the ancestral word in the sense he and Suut do, much less that they used it to describe themselves as an ethnic unit. Their fantasies rely far too heavily on Indian uses of the word, as though literate India popped straight out of the Urheimat with no history of its own.

    I haven't got a decent etymological dictionary on me at the moment, so I request that anyone who has find me the proposed histories of TII's listed words;
    Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
    Anglo Saxon: Ár = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
    Old German: era
    Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
    German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
    Irish: Aire
    Dutch: eer
    Greek: αριστος
    Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
    Persian: áriya
    Latin: ars = Art


    I've found this so far;
    ÁR , e ; f. I. honour, glory, rank, dignity, magnificence, respect, reverence; honor, dignitas, gloria, magnificentia, honestas, reverentia :- Sý him ár and onwald be to him honour and power, Exon. 65 b; Th. 241, 28; Ph. 663. Ne wolde he ǽnige áre wítan nor would he ascribe any honour, Bd. 2, 20; S. 521, 29. He sundor líf wæs fóreberende eallum ðám árum he was preferring a private life to all honours, Bd. 4, 11; S. 579, 8. Nyton náne áre on nánum men they know no respect for any man, Bt. 35, 6; Fox 168, 25. Be ðære cirican áre according to the rank of the church, L. Alf. pol. 42; Th. i. 90, 10. He on his ágenum fæder áre ne wolde gesceáwian he would not look with reverence on his own father, Cd. 76; Th.95, 18; Gen. 1580. II. kindness, favour, mercy, pity, benefit, use, help; gratia, favor, misericordia, beneficium, auxilium :- He gemunde ðá ða áre ðe he him ǽr forgeaf, wíc-stede wé­ligne he remembered then the favour which he before had conferred upon him, the wealthy dwelling place, Beo. Th. 5205; B. 2606. Ne mihte earmsceapen áre findan nor might the poor wretch find pity, Andr. Kmbl. 2260 ; An. 1131. Him wæs ára þearf to him was need of favours, Cd. 97; Th. 128, 12; Gen. 2125. To gódre áre to good use, Herb. 2, 9; Lchdm. i. 82, 21: Bd. 3, 5; S. 527, 14. Eallum to áre ylda bearnum for the benefit of all the sons of men, Jul. A: 2. (Vid. Price's Walton, ci. note 34.) Leáf and gærs gróweþ eldum to áre leaves and grass grow for the benefit of men, Bt. Met. Fox 20, 199; Met. 20, 100. Ðǽr is ár gelang fira gehwylcum there is help ready to every man, Andr. Kmbl. 1958; An. 981. III. property, possessions, an estate, land, eccle­siastical living, benefice; bona, possessiones, fundus, beneficium :- He plihte to him sylfum and ealre his áre he acts at peril of himself and all his property, L. Eth. ix. 42; Th. i. 350, 3: Ors. 1, 1; Bos. 20, 32. Hwílum be áre, hwílum be ǽhte sometimes in estate, sometimes in goods, L. Eth. vi. 51; Th. i. 328, 11: L. C. S. 50; Th. i. 404,18. Se ðe sitte on his áre on lífe he who lives on his property during life, L. Eth. iii. 14; Th. i. 298, 9: L. Eth. vi. 4; Th. i. 316, 1, 3. Ðæt hí him andlyfne and áre forgeáfen for heora gewinne that they should give them food and possessions for their labour, Bd. 1, 15; S. 483, 19. [Laym. ære, are : Orm. are : O. Sax. éra : O. Frs. ére : Dut. eer : Ger. ehre, f : M. H. Ger. ére : O. H. Ger. éra : Dan. äre : Swed. ära : O. Nrs. æra.]
    from http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=47

    But the compilers are overly cautious in restricting their gaze to the Germanic family.

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
    Anglo Saxon: Ár = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
    Old German: era
    Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
    German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
    Irish: Aire
    Dutch: eer
    Greek: αριστος
    Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
    Persian: áriya
    Latin: ars = Art


    I've found this so far;

    from http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=47

    But the compilers are overly cautious in restricting their gaze to the Germanic family.
    Isn't this what was/is most important for you? There you have it!--so how about a instead of a .

    Best wishes Oswiu: I know, now, that you are 'looking'.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    Isn't this what was/is most important for you? There you have it!--so how about a instead of a .

    Best wishes Oswiu: I know, now, that you are 'looking'.
    I always look, but I still haven't found what you claim is there to be found.

    All that we have here is a bunch of reflexes of one Germanic noun, a Greek word, and a highly doubtful parallel in Irish, and an Italic word that semantically represents something quite different. Nothing in Baltic, Slavonic, Albanian, PalaeoBalkan, Anatolian, Armenian ...
    And none of these words have been sufficiently expounded etymologically and phonetically as true cognates.

    So you have found a few western words that seem to have a vague relation to the Indic one, and you use this as an excuse to apply all sorts of Indian occultism and mysticism to us in the west, to whom such a tradition is alien.

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    Re: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    I always look, but I still haven't found what you claim is there to be found.

    All that we have here is a bunch of reflexes of one Germanic noun, a Greek word, and a highly doubtful parallel in Irish (?: how do the Irish pronounce "Ireland"...), and an Italic word that semantically represents something quite different. Nothing in Baltic, Slavonic, Albanian, PalaeoBalkan, Anatolian, Armenian ...
    And none of these words have been sufficiently expounded etymologically and phonetically as true cognates.

    So you have found a few western words that seem to have a vague relation to the Indic one, and you use this as an excuse to apply all sorts of Indian occultism and mysticism to us in the west (I do? where?), to whom such a tradition is alien.
    And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...

    But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple! There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.

    I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.

    If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.

    That's that.
    "...The moral man is a lower species than the immoral, a weaker species; indeed - he is a type in regard to morality, but not a type in himself; a copy...the measure of his value lies outside him. ... I assess the power of a will by how much resistance, pain, torture it endures and knows how to turn to its advantage; I do not account the evil and painful character of existence a reproach to it, but hope rather that it will one day be more evil and painful than hitherto..." (Nietzsche)

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    AW: What comes to mind when you hear the name "Aryan"

    All that things come to mind in my case, but primarily (original) Indo-Iranian (people) and (the original) Indoeuropeans in general. I voted vor the later. So, if hearing that word, I think about Late Neolithicum-Bronze Age and early Iron Age Indoeuropeans in general and those which lived from Eastern Europe to India and Turkestan in particular.

    If thinking about modern people I might think of some people "looking similar to ancient Aryans", which means a certain racial trait combination, though I know that they were rather variable in all times, certain characteristics seem to have dominated. But even then I would use different terms and think the term is not very useful in a modern context other than thinking about the racial and spiritual base of this ancient people. There are just modern people being closer or further away both by their ethnic culture and racial variant, but there is no direct modern successor in my opinion. In a way the view on the the ancient ones can be idealised, being an ideal in itself, but then again thats rather a construction and abstraction from the original.
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