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Thread: Why Jesus?

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    Senior Member Jehan's Avatar
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    Why Jesus?

    This has been bugging me for quite a long time now. I've been an atheist until recently, because I didn't think about it that much and that was the "hip" stance to take. However, after a debate with a Catholic friend that lasted two years(the debate, not the friend ), I've aknowledged the existence of a divine entity that would be the source of all things. What I don't get is why Jesus, or more precisely, his sacrifice, is seen as necessary in a theistic worldview by Christians. Could anyone please try to enlighten a confused theist soul?

    Without any reference to the bible, please.
    J'appelle ici de droite, par pure convention, l'attitude consistant à considérer la diversité du monde, et, par suite, les inégalités relatives qui en sont nécessairement le produit comme un bien, et, l'homogénéisation progressive du monde, prônée et réalisée par le discours bimillénaire de l'idéologie égalitaire, comme un mal.

    Alain de Benoist, Vu de Droite

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    Senior Member Waarnemer's Avatar
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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan
    This has been bugging me for quite a long time now. I've been an atheist until recently, because I didn't think about it that much and that was the "hip" stance to take. However, after a debate with a Catholic friend that lasted two years(the debate, not the friend ), I've aknowledged the existence of a divine entity that would be the source of all things. What I don't get is why Jesus, or more precisely, his sacrifice, is seen as necessary in a theistic worldview by Christians. Could anyone please try to enlighten a confused theist soul?

    Without any reference to the bible, please.
    return to sender, stay atheist. Its in the story of jesus one can see through the mystics surrounding christianity, for example why would an god of absolute knowledge and power have to send his son to the earth besides for a concept of pure symbolic? Surly the reason cannot be the one the bible intends for, because who would have determined the rules for doing so, the devil? Its a negation of human intelligence

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan
    This has been bugging me for quite a long time now. I've been an atheist until recently, because I didn't think about it that much and that was the "hip" stance to take. However, after a debate with a Catholic friend that lasted two years(the debate, not the friend ), I've aknowledged the existence of a divine entity that would be the source of all things. What I don't get is why Jesus, or more precisely, his sacrifice, is seen as necessary in a theistic worldview by Christians. Could anyone please try to enlighten a confused theist soul?

    Without any reference to the bible, please.
    Here's the way I see it (in simple terms):

    God's perfect. That means everything he makes is perfect. He made a world for his children (us). It was perfect.

    The reason he made the world for us is so that we could grow up (like any father wants for his children). But people learn to grow up by confronting bad stuff. I mean, little kids do dumb things like touch hot oven racks when their moms are baking cookies — as they grow up, they learn to stop doing so many dumb things and start doing smart things. But they can't even have the chance of doing dumb things in a perfect world — everything's perfect. So God needed his children to be able to encounter the possibility of bad stuff — that way they could grow up by learning to do good things and ditch the bad things.

    But God only makes perfect stuff — he's not in the bad stuff department. So he needed to get a way for his children to do bad stuff on their own. That's where Satan and the tree and all of that Garden of Eden symbolism comes into the picture. Basically all of that boils down to this — God told us to be perfect and we couldn't hack it (since we were still just little kids compared to him). We messed up. And since he knows the future, he knew we would mess up.

    But like any father, he didn't want our mess-ups to keep us down. He wanted us to be able to mess up without getting all the negative consequences of our mess-ups. Just enough negative consequences for us to learn.

    That's where Jesus comes in. Jesus suffered the negative consequences for all our mess-ups. But since he was God, he was able to overcome it on his own. After becoming (briefly) the biggest outcast in the universe and getting killed for being the biggest mess-up ever (since he had all our mess-ups on his shoulders), he came back to life and went to heaven anyway. And because he did that, each of us can come back to life and go back to heaven anyway if we follow him (which makes sense — if you follow someone, you would expect to end up where he ends up).

    Now God's not stupid, so he planned all that from the beginning. He knew he wanted his kids to be perfect (he wants everything to be perfect — it's like a never-ending fetish for him). He knew they wouldn't. He knew their mess-ups would make life on earth kind of sucky compared to what he wanted for them (even though it's really not all that bad, which means he wanted a whole lot better for us). He wanted to make a way for us to get past the suckiness so that we could get the kind of life he was after for us. So he sent Jesus. As a result, we won't be stuck with the suckiness forever. We'll get to move beyond that. We can grow up healthy and strong to our heart's content without having to endure all the bad effects of all our bad choices forever.

    That's just one Christian's take on the matter. There are probably about a billion other versions of that idea (since there are about a billion other Christians). But that's the way I see it. What do you think? Does this answer your question at all?

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan
    This has been bugging me for quite a long time now. I've been an atheist until recently, because I didn't think about it that much and that was the "hip" stance to take. However, after a debate with a Catholic friend that lasted two years(the debate, not the friend ), I've aknowledged the existence of a divine entity that would be the source of all things. What I don't get is why Jesus, or more precisely, his sacrifice, is seen as necessary in a theistic worldview by Christians. Could anyone please try to enlighten a confused theist soul?

    Without any reference to the bible, please.
    Hey, congrats on your decision to make "the Journey Home" , I myself am a former atheist who reverted after several years of being outside the Church.

    Anyways. I cant really speak at volume on this issue for several reasons at the moment, however I'll give some links to where you can read some interesting explainations.

    For one, Jim Kalb gives an interesting take on this issue; and how Christ's atonement runs counter to the hedonist perspective all too widespread in today's society:
    http://turnabout.ath.cx:8000/node/562


    Personally, possibly one of the best explainations Ive heard about this issue comes from Ellen G. White in her book Patriarchs and Prophets, which is about the battle between good and evil and how it played out within the Old Testament. Chapter four of the book is entirely dedicated to the issue of Christ's sacrifice and the meaning behind it. Here's some excepts:

    http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/pp/pp4.html

    "The fall of man filled all heaven with sorrow. The world that God had made was blighted with the curse of sin and inhabited by beings doomed to misery and death. There appeared no escape for those who had transgressed the law. Angels ceased their songs of praise. Throughout the heavenly courts there was mourning for the ruin that sin had wrought.

    The Son of God, heaven’s glorious Commander, was touched with pity for the fallen race. His heart was moved with infinite compassion as the woes of the lost world rose up before Him. But divine love had conceived a plan whereby man might be redeemed. The broken law of God demanded the life of the sinner. In all the universe there was but one who could, in behalf of man, satisfy its claims. Since the divine law is as sacred as God Himself, only one equal with God could make atonement for its transgression. None but Christ could redeem fallen man from the curse of the law and bring him again into harmony with Heaven. Christ would take upon Himself the guilt and shame of sin—sin so offensive to a holy God that it must separate the Father and His Son. Christ would reach to the depths of misery to rescue the ruined race...The very fact that Christ bore the penalty of man's transgression is a mighty argument to all created intelligences that the law is changeless; that God is righteous, merciful, and self-denying; and that infinite justice and mercy unite in the administration of His government."
    And so on. You can read more at the link if you wish(where the author goes into more details) but this is very much the basic point made.

    Hope this helped!

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Here's the way I see it (in simple terms):
    Sorry, Leofric, but it just seems like so much sophistry to me, only to the purpose of justifying some absurd Middle Eastern creation myth. As though the dogma comes first, and the reasoning after.
    I was raised without Christianity, and find it hard to get into that way of thinking. I was up on the Hills today [that's my religion] and it struck me how odd it was that the people in the surounding villages [whose spires you could see in the distance] had based all their spiritual life for centuries on a man from the horriblest dustiest and most-troubledest part of the Earth. [Of course, they hadn't done that - see Taras Bulba's recent post on English Folk Christianity, but even so]

    I remember the words of an English soldier in France in the Great War; "What I don't like about this 'ere France, is all these bloody Jesuses and Marys all over the place!" I can echo that; so many pictures of a man being painfully executed. Distasteful. A suicide cult almost. This stuff really puts me off.

    As I've said before elsewhere, I'm not one of these zealous atheists who makes it their mission to do down Christianity, as I acknowledge its place in our history, but I just thought I'd voice my own feelings here, that's all.

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan
    This has been bugging me for quite a long time now. I've been an atheist until recently, because I didn't think about it that much and that was the "hip" stance to take. However, after a debate with a Catholic friend that lasted two years(the debate, not the friend ), I've aknowledged the existence of a divine entity that would be the source of all things. What I don't get is why Jesus, or more precisely, his sacrifice, is seen as necessary in a theistic worldview by Christians. Could anyone please try to enlighten a confused theist soul?

    Without any reference to the bible, please.
    Basically:
    Jewish people had been gods elected people.
    Jewish people went to far from gods laws.
    Jesus Christ was sended to the elected people to save them from the evil.
    Jewish people didn´t welcome him as god son, instead they killed him.
    God took away his goodwilling from jewish people and gave it to us.
    The christianity is established in Rom by Pietro, and is going to spread between all the European citizen.
    Jew will be the cursed people from now on and will, therefore, try in every way to excel the european cristianity in every way to show that they are still the elected people.
    Nur wer selber am eigenen Leibe fühlt, was es heißt, Deutscher zu sein, ohne dem lieben Vaterlande angehören zu dürfen, vermag die tiefe Sehnsucht zu ermessen, die zu allen Zeiten im Herzen der vom Mutterlande getrennten Kinder Brennt. Sie quält die von ihr Erfaßte und verwigert ihnen Zufriedenheit und Glück so lange, bis die Tore des Vaterhauses sich öffnen und im gemeinsamen Reiche das gemeinsame Blut Frieden und Ruhe wiederfindet.

    AH - MK

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by montecristo
    Basically:
    Jewish people had been gods elected people.
    Jewish people went to far from gods laws.
    Jesus Christ was sended to the elected people to save them from the evil.
    Jewish people didn´t welcome him as god son, instead they killed him.
    God took away his goodwilling from jewish people and gave it to us.
    The christianity is established in Rom by Pietro, and is going to spread between all the European citizen.
    Jew will be the cursed people from now on and will, therefore, try in every way to excel the european cristianity in every way to show that they are still the elected people.
    Well, that's just it for me, Montecristo. It's all about the bloody Jews. I don't want to be part of any belief system in which they take central, or indeed any, place. Why pander to their vanity?
    The history of my ancestors before 1 Anno Domini, or our conversion in the 5th Century, was not merely a prelude.

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    Well, that's just it for me, Montecristo. It's all about the bloody Jews. I don't want to be part of any belief system in which they take central, or indeed any, place. Why pander to their vanity?
    The history of my ancestors before 1 Anno Domini, or our conversion in the 5th Century, was not merely a prelude.

    Vanity? There is no reason for them to show vanity. They have been the choosen one cause they accepted gods law and, later, they throw it away.
    Now we are the chosen one, for one reason, cause we accepted gods and jesus law. I´m proud of this evolution, and am proud to be under gods goodwill in place of the cursed jews.
    And we can still learn something from this: not to be such fool as them and throw it all away.
    We are natural enemies to them cause of this, but they are going to beat us, making us atheist or holocaust religion believers instead of christian.
    Nur wer selber am eigenen Leibe fühlt, was es heißt, Deutscher zu sein, ohne dem lieben Vaterlande angehören zu dürfen, vermag die tiefe Sehnsucht zu ermessen, die zu allen Zeiten im Herzen der vom Mutterlande getrennten Kinder Brennt. Sie quält die von ihr Erfaßte und verwigert ihnen Zufriedenheit und Glück so lange, bis die Tore des Vaterhauses sich öffnen und im gemeinsamen Reiche das gemeinsame Blut Frieden und Ruhe wiederfindet.

    AH - MK

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    Re: Why Jesus?

    Discussion on the term *plonk* has been moved to Free Speech:
    http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php...46&postcount=8

    Please use the current thread to discuss Jesus.

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    Senior Member Jehan's Avatar
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    Re: Why Jesus?

    First, I'd like to thank you all for your great help. I really appreciate it.

    To all atheists, though: this thread wasn't made to discuss the existence of a God, Christian or not. I've already made my mind on this. We can always discuss the validity of a theistic worldview in another thread, though: I'm really not afraid of debates. But for the sake of keeping this thread on topic, I'd appreciate if we'd all leave this problem for another time.

    Leofric: interesting point of view. However, I have some objections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Here's the way I see it (in simple terms):

    God's perfect. That means everything he makes is perfect. He made a world for his children (us). It was perfect.
    God's perfect, I agree with this. I don't see how it follows that everything he makes his perfect, though. That would make him limited in his actions, wouldn't it? Perhaps we should try to define perfection first.

    Personally, I think that to be perfect, something has to be absolute, as in independent of all external forces. We are obviously not perfect, as we are limited by the system we call a universe. Moreover, this universe that we inhabit was created by God. Its exitence thus depends on an external entity, making it relative to that entity. It follows that this world cannot be perfect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    The reason he made the world for us is so that we could grow up (like any father wants for his children). But people learn to grow up by confronting bad stuff. I mean, little kids do dumb things like touch hot oven racks when their moms are baking cookies — as they grow up, they learn to stop doing so many dumb things and start doing smart things. But they can't even have the chance of doing dumb things in a perfect world — everything's perfect. So God needed his children to be able to encounter the possibility of bad stuff — that way they could grow up by learning to do good things and ditch the bad things.
    So we are not perfect, are we? But we are God's creatures, and he, as you stated before, can only create perfect things. How does that make sense? And then you said he created "bad stuff" as some kind of challenge for us, which means he would be the source of evil in this world, right? (Isn't this statement strongly against the Christian doctrine?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    But God only makes perfect stuff — he's not in the bad stuff department. So he needed to get a way for his children to do bad stuff on their own. That's where Satan and the tree and all of that Garden of Eden symbolism comes into the picture. Basically all of that boils down to this — God told us to be perfect and we couldn't hack it (since we were still just little kids compared to him). We messed up. And since he knows the future, he knew we would mess up.
    God told us to be perfect but made us imperfect, knowing that we wouldn't be able to hack it. Wouldn't that make him responsible for our failure? Couldn't he just create us without any defect of any kind, making it easier for everyone?


    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    But like any father, he didn't want our mess-ups to keep us down. He wanted us to be able to mess up without getting all the negative consequences of our mess-ups. Just enough negative consequences for us to learn.
    Fair enough. But still, why would he want us to mess up in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    That's where Jesus comes in. Jesus suffered the negative consequences for all our mess-ups. But since he was God, he was able to overcome it on his own. After becoming (briefly) the biggest outcast in the universe and getting killed for being the biggest mess-up ever (since he had all our mess-ups on his shoulders), he came back to life and went to heaven anyway. And because he did that, each of us can come back to life and go back to heaven anyway if we follow him (which makes sense — if you follow someone, you would expect to end up where he ends up).
    Jesus being God, that would mean God took responsibility for all our mess-ups, which makes perfect sense. However, I don't think we can say Jesus really died, as he was, well, divine. But wouldn't that mean we don't have to take responsibility for any of our faults, since in the end, it's all God's fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Now God's not stupid, so he planned all that from the beginning. He knew he wanted his kids to be perfect (he wants everything to be perfect — it's like a never-ending fetish for him). He knew they wouldn't. He knew their mess-ups would make life on earth kind of sucky compared to what he wanted for them (even though it's really not all that bad, which means he wanted a whole lot better for us). He wanted to make a way for us to get past the suckiness so that we could get the kind of life he was after for us. So he sent Jesus. As a result, we won't be stuck with the suckiness forever. We'll get to move beyond that. We can grow up healthy and strong to our heart's content without having to endure all the bad effects of all our bad choices forever.)
    But how is the sacrifice of Jesus necessary for all this? Couldn't we move beyond the suckiness anyhow? And I still don't understand why he didn't make us perfect in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    That's just one Christian's take on the matter. There are probably about a billion other versions of that idea (since there are about a billion other Christians). But that's the way I see it. What do you think? Does this answer your question at all?
    Wow, that's quite protestant. I don't think Catholics would agree that there is as much theories about this as there is Christians. There is only one, and it's the Church's.


    Taras Bulba: I'll get back to you when I have time. I know there's a lot to learn from you, so I wouldn't miss that opportunity.
    J'appelle ici de droite, par pure convention, l'attitude consistant à considérer la diversité du monde, et, par suite, les inégalités relatives qui en sont nécessairement le produit comme un bien, et, l'homogénéisation progressive du monde, prônée et réalisée par le discours bimillénaire de l'idéologie égalitaire, comme un mal.

    Alain de Benoist, Vu de Droite

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