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Thread: The Germanic Idea in England

  1. #51
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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Quote Originally Posted by Todesritter
    To me the dishonesty is barbarous, and the coarseness ascribed to continental Germanics by the French, English, and Americans is a sign of culture ľ but I may be biased.
    You're biased.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Quote Originally Posted by Telperion
    You're biased.
    Guilty as charged, and proud of it.

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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    I like this thread!

    I don't think there is a "hatred" of Germans as such, at least not outside the tabloids. Without being rude most English are generally indifferent to Germans, if they even think of them at all. Part of living on an island means that we don't really have much interaction with those on the continent. The last foreigner, apart from the coloureds, I met was a Hungarian years back.

    I dont consider myself as part of a "Germanic race" and I think that was where Germans slipped up in both world wars, in that they thought the English considered themselves "Teutons". We never have. Teuton was only ever a referance to the German. Since 1066 England has always taken its cultural templates from France and the mediterranean world. When the Vikings are mentioned it is always as some "other", without realising the Viking contribution to England. The Anglo-Saxons, until recent decades, were always percieved as illiterate barbarians only civilised by the Normans.

    The problem today, for the English, is not an identiy crisis but one of having our identity denied. Most English are, like me, a mixture of Celtic and Germanic ancestry. But we have never fitted into either. I don't consider myself as "Celtic" either. I have a deep interest in my Celtic ancestry, mostly recent, but I don't feel at home in that culture. Just as I don't feel entirely at home in Germanic culture. How can I? Neither of them are mine. As I have argued the English have built up their own unique identity. One that is largely a fusion of Anglo-Saxon with Graeco-Roman and a touch of French. I think this is where we are going wrong. We spend a lot of time trying to put ourselves in boxes, which if they exist at all, don't fit us as a people.

    You can argue that the Norman conquest blunted the growth of English identity. Before that we were a largely Germanic culture. But even then we only considered ourselves as arbitrary members. As you can see from the referances to our Viking kin. The Normans pulled us away from our, largely, Scandinavian links and turned us towards Western Europe. When England emerged some four hundred years later it had changed. We were now an imperial nation built on the back of Norman territorial ambitions. This grew into the idea of empire. English identity fruited again under the Tudors mainly due to our champion role as a Protestant power. But also as part of the central government we had largely enjoyed since the late Anglo-saxon kingdom.

    Today English identity needs to focus on those things which make us unique. We are one of the most distinctive peoples on this earth. We have had an identity since at least the 730's. We have had a nation-state since the time of Alfred the Great, born at the Treaty of Wedmore in 886. That makes us, probably, one of the oldest nations north of the Alps, if not the oldest. We can never go back to our pre-Norman Germanic heritage. That is dead and gone, we can salvage what we can and nothing more. Even our language is essentially non-Germanic. We are not Celtic and never have claimed it. We are part of the Western culture of Europe. But we are uniquely English. Our people need to realise the sense of pride that they had before the Union. We need to rewaken our native English identity. Only then will we be the nation we once was. Neither German, or Celt, but English.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

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  4. #54
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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Quote Originally Posted by Engledrihten
    I think this is where we are going wrong. We spend a lot of time trying to put ourselves in boxes, which if they exist at all, don't fit us as a people.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

    You can argue that the Norman conquest blunted the growth of English identity. Before that we were a largely Germanic culture.
    It may again be a case of agreeing to disagree, but I think the Celtic and pre-Celtic elements in English culture are one of the main factors in England being unique, and not really Germanic.

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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    That is how you want it to be. You show great bias. Milesian may neglect the elements you overemphasise.

    Those elements you mentioned are hardly what set England apart from the other nations that make up Britain. We are speaking of culture, not racial characteristics...

    I think the English politeness is more similar to what you find in Scandinavia than Continental Europe. It probably has to do with an insular position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    It may again be a case of agreeing to disagree, but I think the Celtic and pre-Celtic elements in English culture are one of the main factors in England being unique, and not really Germanic.

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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    It may again be a case of agreeing to disagree, but I think the Celtic and pre-Celtic elements in English culture are one of the main factors in England being unique, and not really Germanic.
    I agree that this is the case, to a point. As I have said before, England is the only real colony of the Germanic Volk Movement that survived. But it is our absorption of the British-Celts, Roman, and French elements that moved us away from being Germanic into, well, English.

    We English don't really acknowledge the Celts either through cultural bias or because they were so easily assimilated, or exterminated. The Celts to most English are the "other". To show the confusion my father calls the Welsh the true English! He cant grasp the idea that the English were not originally native to this island. As I said most English are a mixture of Celt and German. I have English, Irish, Scots highlander, and Welsh blood all in recent generations. I take pride in both cultures of the Northern Europeans, but I am neither one, or the other.
    Wita sceal ge■yldig, ne sceal no to hatheort ne to hrŠdwyrde, ne to wac wiga ne to wanhydig, ne to forht ne to fŠgen, ne to feohgifre ne nŠfre gielpes to georn, Šr he geare cunne. Beorn sceal gebidan, ■onne he beot sprice­, o■■Št collenfer­ cunne gearwe hwider hre■ra gehygd hweorfan wille.

    http://www.odinic-rite.org/index2.html
    http://www.steadfasttrust.org.uk/

  7. #57
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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Orginally posted by friedrich braun
    When I was in my late teens I went out with an Irish-Catholic girl (born and bred in London, England, however). I recall her saying that the English viewed everyone else as subhuman/inferior, EXCEPT the Germans for whom they had a sneaking admiration coupled with profound loathing.
    I know a young Englishman who is absolutely obsessed with King Canute and sees England as part of a greater Germania. He is an English Nationalist and he supports his "Northern European Brethren".

    No Englishman would identify with any other singular nation but many do with a Germania all the while possessing an almost spiteful infatuation with Germany, 'the nation of nart-zee blitzers'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Engledrihten
    We can never go back to our pre-Norman Germanic heritage.
    Anglo-Normans and the Franco influence are vastly overblown in my opinion and I descend from them. They were Anglo-Saxon in less than two generations. The Normans weren't really genetically distinct anyway because they were literally, Keltic "Norsemen".

    Middle English, especially legal terminology was influenced by Anglo-Norman but the language itself was more Germanic than Old English which was closer ties to Scandinavian languages. ME was stabilized with the re-introduction of Latin influence as the "French" of that time was bastardized Latin.

    On the Romans: They influenced all Europeans genetically and culturally so I see that as no outstanding significance for the English.

    The brutal fact is that the English downplay and distance themselves from Germanic culture because of their island mentality and psuedo-Nationalistic attitudes imposed by Khazars in the early 20th century that resulted in British involvement in the World Wars.

    If not for that idiot Cromwell, the Jews would have been kept out of England and it would have continued very strong relations with Lutheran Germany.

    Rarely will the English mention how Holland welcomed the Puritans during the 17th century or the alliance against Napoleon, or how Kaiser Wilhelm was Queen Victoria's grandchild or Edward the VIII's relationship and plans with the NS in Germany for the English thrown, or how Oswald Mosley was married to his wife in Herr Goebbel's house with Herr Hitler being one of the few in attendance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Engledrihten
    Even our language is essentially non-Germanic.
    I disagree.

    Old and Middle English are most certainly Germanic root languages. You could look at the Scandinavian influences but Scandinavian languages themselves are heavily influenced by the old Germanic languages.

    English is a Germanic language with heavy Latin influence and some French words that superfluously describe things that were already perfectly designated before their introduction.

    Embrace Germania or forever be ruled by Washington, Brussels, and Tel Aviv.




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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Why has England never had an English king?

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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    That is how you want it to be. You show great bias. Milesian may neglect the elements you overemphasise.
    OK then, what is it about English culture which you find so thoroughly Germanic?

    Those elements you mentioned are hardly what set England apart from the other nations that make up Britain.
    Of course not, and I never said so. They are what makes England closer to its Scottish and Welsh neighbours than to Continental 'Germania'. The Germanic element is obviously what has historically set England apart from the other countries in Britain.

    We are speaking of culture, not racial characteristics...
    Yes, culture

    I think the English politeness is more similar to what you find in Scandinavia than Continental Europe. It probably has to do with an insular position.
    English politeness is cultivated, and the English were once quite different. According to a book I read recently on Georgian England, the English (referring specifically the upper class) of that era were yet to develop the 'stiff upper lip'. They spoke their minds, were 'natural' or spontaneous/uninhibited in emotions, were somewhat "Latin" (or Mediterranean) in temperament.

    This is also the impression I generally get from other historical descriptions of the English.
    Last edited by Rhydderch; Monday, October 3rd, 2005 at 08:29 AM.

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    Post Re: The Germanic Idea in England

    Quote Originally Posted by Engledrihten
    As I have said before, England is the only real colony of the Germanic Volk Movement that survived. But it is our absorption of the British-Celts, Roman, and French elements that moved us away from being Germanic into, well, English.
    I'd remark here that southern parts of the German and western of the German-Netherlandic folk area are also Germanic settlement or colonial areas of the era of the Völkerwanderung, even if here the new settlement areas didn't--as in the case of England--evolve to own and distant folkish beings, but form one folkish entity (or two, respectively, if the western Low Germans insist on their folkish-national specialness--hello Franz ) with Germanic core areas. However the pre-Germanic component flew as contribution into the character of these areas and shows itself at the special and unique coining of the respective regions, e. g. of Bavaria, Austria or the Rhineland, within the pluri-tribal structure of the German nation.

    We English don't really acknowledge the Celts either through cultural bias or because they were so easily assimilated, or exterminated. The Celts to most English are the "other". To show the confusion my father calls the Welsh the true English! He cant grasp the idea that the English were not originally native to this island.
    How do you judge the role which the legends around King Arthur play as historical-mythological reference centre of English identity? I always had the impression that the English generally regard (Celtic) King Arthur as "their" king who defended the country against "foreign" (Germanic) invaders.

    Similar to your father's idea about the Welsh, I remember having read in a book on the Arthur legend that he defended "England" from the Anglo-Saxons. Here of course the different elements which may be regarded as historical strata only altogether constituting modern Englishdom take special places for English identity in a retrospective valuation, for a tabulating mind here in a rather mixed-up way.
    Last edited by Nordgau; Monday, October 3rd, 2005 at 03:39 PM.
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltńglichkeit.

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