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Thread: Nihilism - What is the Solution?

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    In short, there's no point at all for anything, and there is no rational importance for anything.
    Exactly. Rationalism brought about nihilism, and only instinct and spirituality will get us out (which is not to say we should all start acting in an irrational way; we just need to realize once more that reason is just one faculty among many others; it should be an integrated part of our being, nothing more). I suppose it is needless to say that nihilism is a sure sign of decaying civilization.

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Thanks for ruining the thread, Siegfried

    Yeah, that's my entire point. Not metaphysical abstractions or God or anything like that. Just instinct. Life contains its own meaning. Happiness is the victory of the instincts through the mind.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    "Nihilistic? - Obviously.
    So what?
    Why is it worth reaching?
    In short, there's no point at all for anything, and there is no rational importance for anything".
    Look at the foundation - The Family.
    Is there 'no point' in the family?
    Why don't you take that nihilism to its logical conclusion?

    "Prove to me I haven't made a choice".
    I cannot prove a negative; YOU are the one claiming that choices CAN be made, not I. Anyone who makes such a claim should be able to back it up.

    "After chaos recycled itself that many times, yes, it would recur in exactly the same form. That's not 'Supreme Order', that's a cycle".
    And would things occur in the 'same order' in this recurring cycle?
    Yes, hence a kind of order.
    Take the example of aleatoric music, where repetition gives order.
    A cycle has within it the notion of a return to its beginning - another aspect of ordering.

    "Great to see you'll take advantage of a thread on nihilism to promote fascism, eh? No, I disgaree. The strong will carves his own path and it is of no importance to him whether others obey him or not, only that he creates for himself".
    Moody; Show me where I mentioned "fascism"?
    In case you don't know, 'Order of Rank' was Nietzsche's phrase [Rangordnung in the German].
    Nietzsche says that the Strong Will desires this Rangordnung, not I; although I tend to agree with him!
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 02:57 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Jack; "Nihilistic? - Obviously.
    So what?
    Why is it worth reaching?
    In short, there's no point at all for anything, and there is no rational importance for anything".

    Moody Lawless; Look at the foundation - The Family.
    Is there 'no point' in the family?
    Why don't you take that nihilism to its logical conclusion?
    I am taking it to its logical conclusion. Yes, that's right, there's no rational point to the family, or survival, or racialism or anything in particular.

    Jack; "Prove to me I haven't made a choice".

    Moody; I cannot prove a negative; YOU are the one claiming that choices CAN be made, not I. Anyone who makes such a claim should be able to back it up - you obviously can't, and seek to tiresomely answer a question with a question.
    Nice. But I'm afraid free will/fate/destiny is a matter of faith, there are no bulletproof arguments for or against. Even ER can be extended to include free will.

    Jack; "After chaos recycled itself that many times, yes, it would recur in exactly the same form. That's not 'Supreme Order', that's a cycle".

    Moody; And would things occur in the 'same order' in this recurring cycle?
    When it eventually comes about, yes. Though you're going to have a lot of cycles in which every other possibility were actualised.

    Yes, hence a kind of order.
    Ok.

    Take the example of aleatoric music, where repetition gives order.
    Or rap

    A cycle has within it the notion of a return to its beginning - another aspect of ordering.
    So? There's order. And every possibility in between (and there's a lot of them) are always realised

    [quote]Jack; "Great to see you'll take advantage of a thread on nihilism to promote fascism, eh? No, I disgaree. The strong will carves his own path and it is of no importance to him whether others obey him or not, only that he creates for himself".

    Moody; Show me where I mentioned "fascism"?
    Your discussions are almost always geared towards it and you managed to find a way to insert 'order of rank' etc., into an argument about nihilism, something I find fairly irrelevant.

    In case you don't know, 'Order of Rank' was Nietzsche's phrase [Rangordnung in the German].
    Nietzsche says that the Strong Will desires this Rangordnung, not I; although I tend to agree with him!
    Tend? You push it in most your threads. I accept Nietzsche uses the phrase. Nietzsche however is not God (metaphor).
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 03:00 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    what's the difference between nihilism and stirnerite anarchism?
    Life is so boring there is nothing to do except spend all our wages on the latest skirt or shirt

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    "I am taking it to its logical conclusion. Yes, that's right, there's no rational point to the family, or survival, or racialism or anything in particular".
    There you have it - you say there is no point to racial survival: THAT is why I am opposed to you.
    But even so, you have left out the last logical step: if there is no point, then why do you live?
    The fact that you still live, BELIES you own stance - what keeps you living is the very point of life.
    So your nihilism is not sincere - another reason why I am opposed to your position.

    [quote]"Your discussions are almost always geared towards fascism and you managed to find a way to insert 'order of rank' etc., into an argument about nihilism, something I find fairly irrelevant".

    One cannot speak of Nihilism without the figure of Nietzsche intruding; just as Nietzsche studied Nihilism, so did he too study Order of Rank [OR] - he put the latter in relief against the former.
    That's why OR is COMPLETELY relevant here.
    On my basic politics being fascist/N-S ... yes, and I will not apologise for that; nor will I change my politics with the wind.
    I don't think you have shown the kind of analytical perception necessary to decide whether something of mine is 'relevant' or irrelevant', anyway.

    I subscribe to "grand racialism"; that is, I recognise [as did Spengler, Gobineau, Jung et al.,] how a racial archetype is interwoven with the particular activities and characteristics of a race.
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 03:03 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Jack; "I am taking it to its logical conclusion. Yes, that's right, there's no rational point to the family, or survival, or racialism or anything in particular".
    Moody Lawless; There you have it - you say there is no point to racial survival: THAT is why I am opposed to you.[/quote]

    No rational reason.

    But even so, you have left out the last logical step: if there is no point, then why do you live?
    The fact that you still live, BELIES you own stance - what keeps you living is the very point of life.
    So your nihilism is not sincere - another reason why I am opposed to your position.


    Jack; "Your discussions are almost always geared towards fascism and you managed to find a way to insert 'order of rank' etc., into an argument about nihilism, something I find fairly irrelevant".

    Moody; One cannot speak of Nihilism without the figure of Nietzsche intruding; just as Nietzsche studied Nihilism, so did he too study Order of Rank [OR] - he put the latter in relief against the former.
    If you could put some more information (say, quotes or something) I'd be interested to see how Nietzsche contrasts OR with Nihilism. Personally I haven't seen it done - then again, I don't read the Will to Power.

    That's why OR is COMPLETELY relevant here.
    Fair enough then - let's hear it.

    On my basic politics being fascist/N-S ... yes, and I will not apologise for that; nor will I change my politics with the wind.
    I've figured that out by now. To be honest, I was and remain an Anarch of the type Siegfried covered in the other thread - the free spirited individualist. I am try to learn, and as such I have not had an ideology set in concrete in a long time, but I've come to believe Anarcho-Capitalism with my own personal racialism (whatever you may think of it) is the right way (for me - it might (and probably is) entirely inappropriate for you). But I shall continue debating regardless.

    I don't think you have shown the kind of analytical perception necessary to decide whether something of mine is 'relevant' or irrelevant', anyway.
    Analogy. Spengler was a fan of it. Let's you understand something of the organism you're studying.

    I subscribe to "grand racialism"; that is, I recognise [as did Spengler, Gobineau, Jung et al.,] how a racial archetype is interwoven with the particular activities and characteristics of a race.
    I understand the Spengler part - as for Gobineau, I haven't read him, and I'm only beginning to read Carl Jung right now - for my information, where did Jung cover racial archetypes (I know he wrote about archetypes of the collective unconscious - where about racial archetypes?).
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 03:08 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack
    "No rational reason".
    Ad hoc qualification made after the event; you said that there is "no point in anything", first [on this thread], only adding 'rational' afterwards to try and get out of the hole you had dug yourself.

    "If you could put some more information (say, quotes or something) I'd be interested to see how Nietzsche contrasts OR with Nihilism. Personally I haven't seen it done - then again, I don't read the Will to Power [WTP]".
    You can't really discuss Nietzsche's ideas in this context if you haven't read the WTP. The first book of WTP is entitled 'European Nihilism', and it discusses just that in a very thorough analysis.
    The fourth and final book of the WTP is entitled 'Discipline and Breeding', and it describes Nietzsche's philosophical response to this Nihilism.
    Order of Rank is a key political response to Nihilism [just as the Eternal Return is a key cosmological response].
    To show how wrong your interpretation of Nietzsche is, I can make this quick quote;
    "My philosophy aims at an Ordering of Rank: NOT at an individualistic morality".
    [WTP 287]

    "I'm only beginning to read Carl Jung right now - for my information, where did Jung cover racial archetypes (I know he wrote about archetypes of the collective unconscious - where about racial archetypes?)".
    The key text is the short essay called 'Wotan', written about 1936. Jung's fairly pro-N-S and anti-Semitic attitudes were manifest in the 1930s, but he 'revised' them out after the war.
    See his attitude towards Freud's ideas as typically Semitic in this pre-war period; see also 'Mind and Earth' in Jung's Collected Works, X:46: also 'The Complications of the American Psychology', X:508.
    See also the books on Jung by Richard Noll, which include 'The Jung Cult', and 'The Aryan Christ'.
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 03:11 PM. Reason: updated thread
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Aloysha; "No rational reason".

    Moody Lawless; Ad hoc qualification made after the event; you said that there is "no point in anything", first [on this thread], only adding 'rational' afterwards to try and get out of the hole you had dug yourself.
    Pretty short amount of time after the even then - "In short, there's no point at all for anything, and there is no rational importance for anything."

    Jack; "If you could put some more information (say, quotes or something) I'd be interested to see how Nietzsche contrasts OR with Nihilism. Personally I haven't seen it done - then again, I don't read the Will to Power [WTP]".

    Moody; You can't really discuss Nietzsche's ideas in this context if you haven't read the WTP. The first book of WTP is entitled 'European Nihilism', and it discusses just that in a very thorough analysis.
    The fourth and final book of the WTP is entitled 'Discipline and Breeding', and it describes Nietzsche's philosophical response to this Nihilism.
    Order of Rank is a key political response to Nihilism [just as the Eternal Return is a key cosmological response].
    To show how wrong your interpretation of Nietzsche is, I can make this quick quote;
    "My philosophy aims at an Ordering of Rank: NOT at an individualistic morality".
    [WTP 287]
    It's going to be a while before I read Nietzsche's Will to Power. Is it hosted on the net somewhere? If you've got a link that'd be useful, and I'd check it out as soon as I can. I've demonstrated how Eternal Return does not avoid nihilism. That WTP 287 quote - if that is what Nietzsche wrote, and not his sister, then I am not a Nietzschean. However I still believe his sister distorted much of his writings in 'The Will to Power'.

    Jack; "I'm only beginning to read Carl Jung right now - for my information, where did Jung cover racial archetypes (I know he wrote about archetypes of the collective unconscious - where about racial archetypes?)".
    Moody Lawless; The key text is the short essay called 'Wotan', written about 1936.[/QUOTE]

    I'll check it out when I've got time.
    Last edited by Moody; Saturday, December 9th, 2006 at 03:13 PM. Reason: updated thread
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Much has been written about nihilism, most because for any great good in life, one needs an opposite, and that is the belief in nothing: that nothing is worth striving for, that nothing can have any meaning, that the individual and the world together are nothing. I refer to this as fatalism because, quite honestly, if one believes that little - not even in the pleasures of being alive, the basest of joys - then death is a gift and a deliverance. If your fate is so terrible, embrace it, and die well. Perhaps you can bestir yourself long enough to strap an explosive device onto your person and, running into some commercial orgy such as a mall during Christmas shopping, detonate yourself, clearing others of a subtler fatalism from amongst us.
    (Read the rest...)
    http://www.anus.com/zine/articles/nihil/

    Nihilism
    Plato created his famous metaphor of the cave to illustrate the two states in which humans live. He said that what we know of reality is like shadows projected on the cave wall by objects in front of a fire; silhouettes of what really exists. There's several ways to interpret this.
    The first is the most popular way, in which there's a pure world somewhere and the physical objects we sense are pale shadows of that world. This creates a causal problem, because if this pure world exists, what created it, and why is there duality with this world? The usual response here is "God did it," which just gets silly when you consider the modern nature of God: some absolute being who like a democratic leader makes sure we all get tucked into bed at night. WTF LOL
    Another way is the method chosen by the ancient Indo-European scribes who wrote the Vedas: to suggest that we can only know impressions of physical objects as filtered through our senses, thus the shadows we see on the wall are those impressions - whether of our own perception, or of social conditioning, is a questions moderns, who are beset by a constant stream of electronic images, have to contend with more than ancients, who actually had some peace and goddamn quiet in which to contemplate reality.
    A nihilism is one who denies all value except the inherent; this means that nothing can be filed in neat categories like "good" or "evil" or even "profitable," but exists as it functions as part of the larger structure and design of nature. To a nihilist, most of what we know as "reality" is value associations conditioned into us by society and linked to objects, such that when we perceive the objects, we're seeing them as an adjunct to the socially conditioned value.
    Nihilism is a mental bleach to remove these external, centralized, absolute controlling values, because if we're going to get anywhere in thought or even life itself, it helps to recognize reality (this would seem more evident than it apparently is to most people in this time). When these barriers are gone, we can begin to perceive life as a continuous system, instead of a barrage of values in conflict with one another.
    For this reason, nihilists of the modern type consider nihilism a gateway philosophy, in that one can branch on to other disciplines, such as existentialism or integralism or naturalism, without becoming confused in the initial definitions required to appreciate such philosophies without projecting onto them the imprint of the social logic we've been taught, which in a modern time is a mishmash of scientific progressivism, utilitarianism, secularized Judeo-Christian dogma and industrial capitalist "Social Darwinist" rhetoric.
    Nihilism, in the definition which we use, is not compatible with fatalism, or the belief that one can never know anything, do anything to change the world, or even have any values system whatsoever. Fatalism is the philosophy of those who would rather be dead, and thus it's healthy to be skeptical of any fatalists you encounter, because they seemingly lack the ability to off themselves yet persist in preaching their hopeless, dead-end, self-pitying dogma at you. Fatalism is not "modern" nihilism, as we call the kind of values-denial practiced here at ANUS.com.
    One other thing that will conflict with nihilism is a type of quasi-fatalism disguised as the most positive philosophy over. In our society, the "progressive" worldview is quite popular; it states that we have steadily through morality and technology been pulling ourselves up from a primitive state, and someday we'll achieve a Utopic society. This view is bigotry against the natural world, and descends from the Christian ideal of a moral society, which in turn descends from the Jewish concept of "Tikkun Olam," or "repairing the world" - a world which doesn't need repairing, if one isn't so afraid of death that one cannot see its inner beauty.
    It's precisely to escape this kind of insane worldview that nihilism is used in a modern time. We grow up under this doctrine of death-fear, which implements its disease by creating values that are contrary to death, such as ways of convincing you that you will live forever or that your life can be made meaningful only by implementing a progressive agenda, at which point you can feel good about your depressed and self-pitying self because you're doing the Absolute right thing.
    Nihilism removes all this; it's like jumping out of an airplane without checking for your chute. Death is certain. Life is not. But reality is always preferrable to imaginary worlds and false values. If you can follow this trip, welcome to the world of nihil.
    http://www.anus.com/zine/nihilism/
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, December 19th, 2006 at 05:29 PM. Reason: merged two posts using same links

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