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Thread: Angeln?

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    Angeln?

    Hello Danes!

    As an Englishman, I am vaguely curious as to the homeland of my Germanic ancestors, and being from the North of England that means Angles a little more than Saxons. [[[Of course, there will also be a great deal of true Danish blood in me as well, but that would involve a larger and less defined region of origin.]]]

    I would therefore like to ask if anyone here can tell me about the present condition of Old Angeln, perhaps providing a few links, or even photos of the typical landscapes to be found there! To be honest, and to my shame, I know almost nothing about this part of the world, and so would be very grateful for anything you can give.

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    Vedr: Angeln?

    Hi

    Angel (German: Angeln) is actually German territory nowadays.
    Angel is a peninsula-like area on the south-eastern coast of Jutland, which is a part of the southern territory of Jutland, which was lost to the Prussians in the Danish-German War in 1864. Today it is a part of the German state of Slesvig-Holsten (Sleswig-Holstein).
    The main town of Angel is Slesvig (Sleswig.), which lies by the river of Slien. It was one of the greatest tradecenter in Scandinavia in the Viking Age (then by the name of Hedeby/Haddeby).
    The landscape of Angel is rather flat and heavily dominated by agriculture on fertile soil - pretty typical for the major part of Jutland, but with slightly more forests though.
    I don't believe Angel has a strong identity today compared to e. g. Saxony or Jutland and has not for many centuries. This has more or less been replaced by the term Slesvig - Angel was part of the Duchy of Slesvig in the Middle Ages.
    As a curiosum I can mention, that in the Viking Age the population in the area of Slesvig was considered two, in that the eastern part (Angel) spoke Danish and the western part spoke Frisian.

    I have supplied two interesting pictures:
    In the middel of the landscape picture, you can see the large Viking Age military defensive wall Dannevirke which runs west from Slesvig town (the one visible) and almost across to the western coast (a Danish 'Hadrian Wall' to keep, amongst others, the barbaric Frankish Empire out).
    The map shows the now German part of Slesvig and Holsten and contains some interesting details like Dannevirke and the areas of population of different ethnic groups in the Viking Age... Names are in Danish.

    For more try google on some of the geographical names I threw in this post - apart from 'Angel' or 'Angeln', which are useless each for their own reason.
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    Re: Angeln?

    The pictures of the rolling fields/farmland is very similiar to southern England.

    Those who have flown in from Denmark, Norway, Sweden etc will have noticed it if they were landing at either Stanstead,Heathrow or Gatwick.

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    Re: Angeln?

    Pictures from the Schlei/Slien River area:
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    Re: Vedr: Angeln?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfa
    Angel (German: Angeln) is actually German territory nowadays.
    Oops! That's a bit embarrassing. I just read Jutland all the time, and forget how far the Tydisk fellows have crept up the peninsula...
    Everything that you [a Scholar and a Gentleman] and the other lads posted is great, Thanks!
    Today it is a part of the German state of Slesvig-Holsten (Sleswig-Holstein).
    Are there any Danes left on the southern side of the border? I assume they have either left or been assimilated now, no? I would imagine there would be a fair few people of mixed background on either side of it though. I looked at some of my language and dialect distribution maps, but they differ - some show Danish areas in Germany and some show German areas in Danemark. Some show both!
    I don't believe Angel has a strong identity today compared to e. g. Saxony or Jutland and has not for many centuries. This has more or less been replaced by the term Slesvig - Angel was part of the Duchy of Slesvig in the Middle Ages.
    Supporting the tradition that the area was as good as abandoned when we left. Incoming Danes would have had little sentimental attachment to the old name, I suppose.
    As a curiosum I can mention, that in the Viking Age the population in the area of Slesvig was considered two, in that the eastern part (Angel) spoke Danish and the western part spoke Frisian.
    I wonder are these Frisians genetic descendants of any left-behind Angles? It seems odd to me that the Frisii should have spread up to the north east, when everyone else was going southwest. Is this just a case of Frisian political power having been extended over these hypothetical Angles?
    I have supplied two interesting pictures:
    In the middel of the landscape picture, you can see the large Viking Age military defensive wall Dannevirke which runs west from Slesvig town (the one visible) and almost across to the western coast (a Danish 'Hadrian Wall' to keep, amongst others, the barbaric Frankish Empire out).
    Have you seen that Chinese copy of the same? They got the scale all wrong...
    I've been looking at the Dannevirke on Google Earth just now. There is a modern road by it called 'am Wall' [proving that I found the correct dark line?! ].
    The map shows the now German part of Slesvig and Holsten and contains some interesting details like Dannevirke and the areas of population of different ethnic groups in the Viking Age... Names are in Danish.
    Superb map.
    Interesting names too. I recognise the Vagrerne as the Wagrii Polabian Slavs of the days before the Nordmark. They got very close, didn't they! The Saxerne and Friserne and Danerne are self-explanatory. The Holtsaterne are interesting - looking at the other names, I suppose we take away Danish plural suffix -erne and are left with a more English looking Holtset - like our Dorset, Somerset and ancient Peakset. Holt is of course one of our old words for wood, like German Holz [is the Niederdeutsch closer to the English in this respect?], and so we have the Wood-dwellers. Holsten and later Holstein are distortions of this original, Germanising the name and creating a nonexistent -stein or stone where there was none before.
    Jaernved is new to me, though. Nothing to do with 'Iron' is it? And Odemarken.
    Ditmarken is more familiar to me as Ditmarsch, being one of the old seats of that family which came from here to rule both the Russian and the British Empires! Why is it given the same importance as the Friserne, and why are the latter not given any greater geographical distinction [being but the Northern branch of that Folk]?
    Where was this taken from, Alfa? I'm not sure if I can see any system at work in the fonts to distinguish people from places.

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    Re: Angeln?

    Are there any Danes left on the southern side of the border? I assume they have either left or been assimilated now, no? I would imagine there would be a fair few people of mixed background on either side of it though. I looked at some of my language and dialect distribution maps, but they differ - some show Danish areas in Germany and some show German areas in Danemark. Some show both!
    Yes there are Danish communities in Schleswig-Holstein still. My German Professor is From SH and she has spoken of them before.
    I wonder are these Frisians genetic descendants of any left-behind Angles? It seems odd to me that the Frisii should have spread up to the north east, when everyone else was going southwest. Is this just a case of Frisian political power having been extended over these hypothetical Angles?
    Well, if the angles did abandon Angeln, which they seem to have, according to the archeological evidence the Frisians cannot be (directly) descended from them. Modern Frisians have admixture from Franks, Saxons and Danes which is evidenced in the various dialects referred to collectively as "Frisian". English and Frisian are thought to have evolved from Anglo-Frisian, as you probably know. Thus the Frisians are not (direct) descendents of the Angles but rather, the Angle tribe is their great, great, great...Aunt. (ugly metaphor )

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    Vedr: Re: Vedr: Angeln?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    [a Scholar and a Gentleman]
    Oh thanks, but somewhat over the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    - some show Danish areas in Germany and some show German areas in Danemark. Some show both!
    The current border is intended to lie where the majority of the population shifts from Danes to Germans. It was determined as a part of the German secession of land after The 1. W. W., by a number of referenda amongst the local populations of Slesvig. The Danish government could have pushed for the return of the entire Slesvig, but opted for this more "pragmatic" approach to end the dispute. It had lasted for more than 500 years.

    The Danish minority in Germany is flurishing; There are schools where Danish is the main language and the political party Sydslesviske Vælgerforening (Südschleswigscher Wählerverband) which mainly appeals to the Danish and Frisian minorities is relatively succesful even on a state-level. In contrast to this, the German minority in Denmark does not stand out much at all from the main population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    I wonder are these Frisians genetic descendants of any left-behind Angles? It seems odd to me that the Frisii should have spread up to the north east, when everyone else was going southwest.
    As seen on the map the Frisian territory is limited to a peripheral coastal area. The lower western coastal region of Jutland is an extension of The Wadden Sea which also dominates large areas Friesland. To cultivate the coast of The Wadden Sea properly takes very specialized techniques much different to normal farming ("land claiming" for instance). Because that kind of area is far more dominant in Frisian "main territory" (e. g. Friesland) the Frisians would have had significantly more advanced skill than Danes (as they do today) and therefore being much better suited for that area in Jutland also. They might have been able to settle there because they were the only ones with the technical ability to sustain a population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    Have you seen that Chinese copy of the same? They got the scale all wrong...
    True. When they heard about the Dannevirke 15.000 km from afar, the tale had "grown" quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    The Holtsaterne are interesting - looking at the other names, I suppose we take away Danish plural suffix -erne and are left with a more English looking Holtset - like our Dorset, Somerset and ancient Peakset. Holt is of course one of our old words for wood, like German Holz [is the Niederdeutsch closer to the English in this respect?], and so we have the Wood-dwellers.
    I guess 'sat'/'set' is related to 'seat' then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    Jaernved is new to me, though. Nothing to do with 'Iron' is it?
    yes, that's probably right (Jern=Iron). An alternative/associated German (or is it Frisian?) name is even Isarnho (isarn=eisen...) (ho=holz(?)).
    Another name for the area is Danskerskoven (German: Dänishwohld). Therefore 'ved' could be used by the same meaning as English 'wood'. Jærnved=Ironwood.

    Maybe this would interest you: Ortsnamenlexicon: www.rostra.dk/slesvig/

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu
    Where was this taken from, Alfa? I'm not sure if I can see any system at work in the fonts to distinguish people from places.
    I got the map from some Danish popular history site, and I don't remember the address. No further source-information came with it. In many respects it's quite "occult".
    Last edited by Alfa; Friday, May 5th, 2006 at 12:35 AM.

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    Re: Vedr: Re: Vedr: Angeln?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfa
    The Danish government could have pushed for the return of the entire Slesvig, but opted for this more "pragmatic" approach to end the dispute.
    Very commendable. Hopefully it will last.
    In contrast to this, the German minority in Denmark does not stand out much at all from the main population.
    War guilt, no doubt.
    I guess 'sat'/'set' is related to 'seat' then?
    Yep, but closer still to 'settle', i.e. occupy/dwell in a land.
    yes, that's probably right (Jern=Iron). An alternative/associated German (or is it Frisian?) name is even Isarnho (isarn=eisen...) (ho=holz(?)).
    Another name for the area is Danskerskoven (German: Dänishwohld). Therefore 'ved' could be used by the same meaning as English 'wood'. Jærnved=Ironwood.
    There is an Iron Wood mentioned in Ragnarok, if I remember correctly. I wonder if this is the one! I think this is where one of the monsters emerges before the End of the World... Must go and look it up.
    skoven = wood, eh? There is a -shaw element in English placenames, sometimes -scough and skogg or scrogg in areas of Norse influence. Probably the same word.
    I don't know about ho=holz, though. We have hoh, in placenames, I think it means 'spur of land'. But combined with the alternative local names wood seems most likely.
    Maybe this would interest you: Ortsnamenlexicon: www.rostra.dk/slesvig/
    It would very much - once again a 'scholar and a gentleman'! [My old Scottish hhistory teacher always used this phrase and I liked it and adopted it myself. What better compliment could there be? ]

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    Re: Vedr: Angeln?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oswiu

    Have you seen that Chinese copy of the same? They got the scale all wrong...
    Well,Oswiu,do you even know when the Great Wall of China was built?That's 300-200B.C.Maybe around 1000 years before the Danish "Great Wall",right?So,who on earth made the copy?......

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    Re: Angeln?

    The following is not terribly enlightening, but it deals with the Anglian Connection.
    Welcome to germanys northest coast of the baltic sea!


    Anglia: The Cradle of England at the Baltic Sea

    For the English visiting the territory of Anglia, in the northeast of the Flensburg/Schleswig region, seems to be a kind of a trip back to their past: In the year 500 AD a part of the Germanic Anglii tribe decided to migrate from their homeland, today’s Anglia region, across the Norh Sea towards England, willing to settle down there. The reason for migration might have been the fear of the wars and corrosion in Continental Europe at that time, and the chance to get away from it all and start a new life. Anyway, a part of the Anglian folk actually settled down in England, the birth of the later name “England”.

    On one hand archaeological records have been proven the Anglian origin of today’s residents of East Anglia, Mercia and Northumberland. Respectively two to a large extend identical so called “Longships” of the Scandinavian Nydam type, one found in Sundewitt (South -Denmark), a little bit north of Anglia, and the other found in Sutton Hoo in East Anglia (UK) give proof of it. Both, the Sutton Hoo ship and Nydam ship, chronologically correspond as well.

    On the other hand former Anglian toponymy endings, like –ing in for example the Anglian names Winning and Fuesing, entered English toponymy’s back then, in this case as the frequently to find ending –ingas in the above mentioned English districts. A lot of today’s English toponymy’s give an impression of the typical Anglian landscape, characterized by the green and gentle hilly Anglian countryside, both cut and decorated by so called “Knicks”, similar to English hedges and stone walls, surrounding the City of Flensburg. By no accident the relation of names is still easy to mention!

    Everywhere in Anglia and its neighbourhood, the region Flensburg/Schleswig, visitors get a warm welcome around-the-clock, opened with the words: "Moin, Moin!" Off the beaten track of mass tourism one can experience and enjoy the nativeness and charme of Anglia, sometimes calm and romantic, some other time dishevelled by the storm.

    Anglia’s manifold water landscapes, whether rivers, lakes or firths or the open sea, invite for sparkling, maritime leisure activities, idyllic walks and bicycle tours. Additionally a rich variety of international sailing regattas, maritime harbour festivals and a well-known music festival were taking place, assuring a high level of entertainment. Of cause, a trip over the border to the near Denmark or a visit of the well-known Vikings Museum in Haithabu would also be worthwhile. The vacation will as well be sweetened by the friendliness and hospitality of the hosts, regardless of the type of accommodation, hotels, apartments, boarding houses or private bed & breakfast - accompanied by typical Anglian food delights, like fresh seafood in a restaurant or fresh baked cake in a farm café.
    -Hyge sceal ðe heardre, heorte ðe cénre, mód sceal ðe máre, þý úre mægen lytlaþ. -The Battle of Maldon
    -I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore. -Thus Spake Zarathustra

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