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Thread: The Pontic Race

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmocreator
    I've never seen a Russian that looks like any of those guys. Maybe all the ones that came to Canada were a different type.
    A careful distinction must always be made between an Ethnic Russian, and somebody from Russia who speaks Russian (the later could include up to 110 other nationalities).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blond Beast
    A careful distinction must always be made between an Ethnic Russian, and somebody from Russia who speaks Russian (the later could include up to 110 other nationalities).
    Very true. Most "Russians" in America, for example, are Jews, Armenians, or Azeris. Ukrainians, who are Slavic, but quite distinct from Russians also often call themselves 'Russian' while they are in the US for the sake of convenience (most Americans don't know where the Ukraine is). In any case, the Southern Pontic race, illustrated by Dienekes's examples is not found among ethnic Russians.

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    Russian anthropologists classified the Tambov-Khoper Northern-Pontic group as an intermediate form between Mediterraneans and Scandinavian Nordics. And of course, Tambov-Khoper Russians are not the most depigmented group that's classified as part of the Northern Pontic race.

    G. F. Debetz, having published the results of an investigation into the population of 5 regions in the Tambov-Khoper region, proved that the Eastern Great Russian type differs prodigiously from the sub-Uralic type. In many traits, this type [the Eastern Great Russian type] resembles the Scandinavian type; for example, cephalic index is inversely correlated with pigmentation of the iris. While studying the question of whether Tambov-Khoper Russians belonged to the Mediterranean race, G. F. Debetz noted that there were several intermediate forms between the Scandinavian [Nordic] race, and the population of the Black Sea shore, and that the Tambov-Khoper type probably represents one of these intermediate forms. This conclusion does not conflict with the classification of the Tambov-Khoper type as part of the Pontic race.

    Source: Alexeeva Tatiana Ivanovna, Bunak Viktor Valerianovich, et al. Origins and Ethnic History of the Russian People According to Anthropological Data, published by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR in 1965, page 16, parargaph 1.

  4. #14
    Member Dienekes_Pontikos's Avatar
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    Biasutti refers to Bunak as accepting a pigmented Northern Pontic race. Coon refers to Bunak and to Polish anthropologists as accepting a brunet Pontic race as an element of the Russian and Polish population respectively and gives brunet examples of that race in his plates. And the Georgian anthropologist Abdushelishvili also refers to "the Pontic type of the Indo-Mediterranean (South-Europaeoid) race".

    http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000409.html

    It seems to me that numerous sources from different anthropological traditions accept the existence of a brunet Mediterranean element in the regions bordering the Black Sea and sporadically further inland, and call this element "Pontic".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    Biasutti refers to Bunak as accepting a pigmented Northern Pontic race.
    Again, "pigmented" is only an appropriate in this instance if one is comparing Northern Pontic Russians to Baltic Russians of the Northwest, who have up to 54% blond hairs and up to 67% pure light eyes. With their high rates of hair and eye blondism, Northern Pontic Russians are depigmented in comparison to virtually any other population.

    Coon refers to Bunak and to Polish anthropologists as accepting a brunet Pontic race as an element of the Russian and Polish population respectively and gives brunet examples of that race in his plates.
    The very same Coon classifies Steppe Russians of the Northern Pontic type as Nordic. And these Russians aren't even the blondest Northern Pontic group.

    It seems to me that numerous sources from different anthropological traditions accept the existence of a brunet Mediterranean element in the regions bordering the Black Sea and sporadically further inland, and call this element "Pontic".
    That's an oversimplification of the matter. There are two distinct branches of the Pontic "race" - the Southern Pontic, found in its purest form in Bulgaria and Albania, and the strongly depigmented Northern Pontic, which is the most important element in the Russian population, in mesocephalic and brachycephalized forms. The two are simmilar morphologically, but very distinct in terms of pigment, and do not even appear to be genetically related to each other (Russian Northern Pontics are very high in Kurganid ancestry, whereas Southern Pontics have very high rates of Neolithic ancestry).

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    I often have to explain to Americans that Serbs are a sort of Russians, and that we live in the neighborhood of Greece. :giggle

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    By the way, Bunak classifies Russians of the Illmen Marsh area (~50% light hairs, ~60% pure light eyes, CI 79.5) as a more depigmented variant of the Northern Pontic Don-Sursk group (29% light hairs, 50% pure light eyes).

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    M. G. Abdushelishvili, "Certain Problems of Ethnic Anthropology in Southwest Asia in the Light of the Latest Research." in Physiological and Morphological Adaptation and Evolution, Mouton, 1979.

    "The Pontic type in the population of the northern Caucasus was first identified by Bunak (1932) who related it to the Mediterranean branch of the Europoid race in the absence of admixture with the northern branch of Europoids (Bunak 1956). Debets (1958) determined the place of the Pontic type among the European groups of anthropological types. In his chart the Pontic type is shown as a transitional form resulting from mixture between the main subdivisions of the Europoid race. Another point of view on the shaping of the Pontic type was expressed by Alexeev (1974), who made the following main points: "The Pontic type was formed in the framework of the Mediterranean branch of the Europoid race, without the participation or admixture of the northern branch. The basic process of forming that type is the gracilization of the massive, protomorphic type." One must agree with Bunak and Alexeev that the Pontic race belongs to the southern branch of Europoids, without admixture of northern elements. We contend that Alexeev is also right when he states that the peoples related to the Pontic type are descendants of the most ancient population of the northern Caucasus. As to the emergence of the Pontic type as a result of the gracilization of the ancient, massive type of Europoid race which, according to the writer, provided the basis for the emergence of the Caucasian type, we disagree (Abdushelishvili 1964). Therefore we shall here merely note our contention that the development of the local Caucasian paleoanthropological types whose roots can be clearly traced in the ancient craniological series in the territory of the Caucasus."

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    Of course, the above excerpt was written before the era of autosomal DNA analysis. We can see on the chart attached that Indo-European ancestry is highest in precisely those areas where the Northern Pontic race is predominant. I am very interested to hear your explanation for why some northern Pontic groups have 50% light eyes and 30% light hairs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes_Pontikos
    "The Pontic type was formed in the framework of the Mediterranean branch of the Europoid race, without the participation or admixture of the northern branch".
    Are they talking about Northern or Southern Pontics here? I find it hard to believe that a group with 50% pure light eyes (and less than 7 dark eyes) and 29% blond hairs could have former without "participation or admixture" of Northern Europids.

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