View Poll Results: Should the English language be made more Anglo-Saxon?

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    165 80.49%
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Thread: Should The English Language Return To Its Anglo-Saxon Roots?

  1. #81
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    A well loved and well known song from north of Theetchland, set into good english. The name of the song is in Theetch "Dat du min leevsten büst". http://members.tripod.com/~radde/Mitternacht.html


    Thou art my darling true
    Thou wotst it well
    Come in the night
    Come in the night
    Who thou art, tell
    Who thou art, tell!

    Come thou at twelve o'clock
    Come thou at one
    Father will sleep.
    Mother will asleep.
    I'll sleep alone.
    I'll sleep alone.

    Knock on the bedroom-door
    Take knob in hand
    Father will think
    Mother will think
    'tis but the wind.
    'tis but the wind.

    When early morning come
    Th' ole cock will crow
    Dearest mine
    Dearest mine
    Then must thou go
    Then must thou go.

    Slip down the hallway dark
    Soft with the hinge!
    Father will think
    Mother will think
    'tis but the wind.
    'tis but the wind.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric View Post
    And what do you think is the good work of building up Germanic lexicons? You've done a lot of gainsaying so far, but little contributing. How would you carry out the good work of building up Germanic lexicons?
    I think that is rather unfair, as this thread begs so many questions that must be asked outright.

    When I was a member of the group called the 'Engliscan Gesithas' I came across some interesting articles on this subject in their Withowinde journal by one David Cowley.

    I presume he is the also author of the following book;

    Eldsay English: New Life for Old English Words ['Revival of vigorous & meaningful Anglo-Saxon vocabulary in Modern English writing', published by Joseph Biddulph in Wales], although I haven't read it.

    He states [in the articles] that;

    " ... the method for working out new words is based on analogy with what we know about the development of the words we still use which came from OE.
    ... It is not always easy to work out how words would have developed in this way and matters are not helped by the fact that Modern English was most strongly based on south-eastern forms of Mercian/Anglain speech, while most OE literature is in the Wessex standard, based strongly on the West Saxon dialect of OE"

    To give an example of his approach; Cowley takes an OE source word, such as fruma, meaning 'origin', and then creates a 'new word' from it, in this case frume to use as a replacement for 'origin'.

    He then gives an example of its usage;

    "The new words are English in frume."

    He gives a fairly long list of such words, and their possible uses.

    Cowley furthered distinguished between words that are "more or less readily understandable", such as overlive meaning to 'survive' and derived from OE oferlibban.

    And words which sound "particularly right", such as slithe for 'cruel' [from OE slithen] - Theudanaz could have used this one in the Shakespeare Sonnet for the Bards' cruell.

    He lists what he calls 'fremful' (useful) words, such as yeaming for 'diligence' [from OE gieming].

    As well as that, and more along Leofric's lines, he gives modern plain 'Germanic English' substitutes for Latinate terms, which is less useful and rather obvious[i.e., we should say 'against' instead of 'anti' etc.,]

    We can go no further back than the runes — at least until we do some more archeology.
    And why don't we use the Anglo-Saxon Runes for English instead of this Latinate alphabet?
    Of course, the Runes are said to show some 'foreign influence', though.
    Last edited by Moody; Thursday, August 31st, 2006 at 01:57 PM. Reason: spelling etc.,
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    The Warriors of the North, by Ted Hughes.


    Bringing their frozen swords, their salt-bleached eyes, their salt-bleached hair,

    The snow's stupified anvils in rows,

    Bringing their envy,

    The slow ships feelered Southward, snails over the steep sheen of the water globe.


    Thawed at the red and black disgorging of abbeys,

    The bountiful, cleft casks,

    The fluttering bowels of the women of dead burghers,

    And the elaborate, patient gold of the Gaels.


    To no end

    But this timely expenditure of themselves,

    A cash-down, beforehand revenge, with extra,

    For the gruelling relapse and prolongueur of their blood


    Into the iron arteries of Calvin.




    Nordhguman, loose OE version of the above by R Bickerstaff.


    Feriendese flocc hira freorigan mecas

    blaecedan dhurh sealte hira beard & eagan

    styntedu anflit snawes sittath geraewod

    clyccende hira anda: crupon tha scipu

    sudhweards swa snaeglas ofer stifige beorhtnesse

    thaes woruldwaetres. Wyrmedon aet myntra

    recblaec & read bereafiende

    tha drefedan cwidhan cwema deadra burgwaras

    ropa sprengende tunnan & searolicu gold langmodra Peohta.

    Ladende to naenigum buton thisse spendunge hiera selfra tidlican

    golden feoh mid brycum & bot aeror

    fore langswaerum fielle hira lifwaeten

    se the inneth Calvines isena aedra.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  4. #84
    Senior Member Theudiskaz's Avatar
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    OVERSET FROM THE OLD ENGLISH WENDING OF BEDE'S
    CHURCHLY YORELORE

    Britain is the Northsea's island, that was y-hoaten Albion in olden days. It is set between the northdeal and westdeal of Theedishland, Gallrike and Spain, the greater fack against the better deal of Europe. (I admit the meaning of this is unclear.) It is eight hundred miles long from North to South, and two hundred miles broad. Against the southdeal it has the land that man hoates Belgish Gallrike. It is rich, this island in waxdom and trees of missly kin, and it is full of meadows, sheep, and cattle, and wineyards grow in some steads. Likewise this land bears missly birds and seadeer, fish-rich waters and well-springs eke. Seals, whales, and mereswine are often fungen here, as well as missly kin of whelks and mussels, in which the best meregroats of every hue are to be found. And it is has a good many whelks from which whelkred dye is made, that neither the sun nor the rain can bleach; but which become fairer as they olden. This land has many salt-wells (?), hot springs, and hot baths of every older throughout sundry steads, eke. Also it is rife of copper and isen ore, as well as lead and silver.

    In days of yore this land was beworthed with the kingliest burghs...timbered with walls, towers and gates, bouten untold lesser chesters.

    To be furthered later...
    Last edited by Theudiskaz; Sunday, January 14th, 2007 at 09:16 PM.
    -Hyge sceal ðe heardre, heorte ðe cénre, mód sceal ðe máre, þý úre mægen lytlaþ. -The Battle of Maldon
    -I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore. -Thus Spake Zarathustra

  5. #85
    Senior Member Theudiskaz's Avatar
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    From the beginning of The Agreement of the People, the proposal for the English constitution made by the "Levellers", after the overthrow of Charles I.


    THE TOGETHERSTEMMING OF THE FOLK
    28th Winterfilth 1647

    Having by our late arveth and plights made it shine to the world at how high a worth we beloff our freedom, and God having so far owned our sake as to send the fiends thereof into our hands, we do now hold ourselves bound in meansome theenst to each other to keep the best care for the tocomeness to forbear the plight of going back to a bondsmanlike wesenhood and the likelihood of another orlaw; for, as it cannot be dreamt that so many of our landsmen would have widdersaked us in this flit if they had understood their own good, so may we carefully swear to ourselves that, when our allmean rights and freedoms shall be lost, their undernimmngs will be put off that seek to make themselves our overlords. Since, therefore, our former underthrutchings and hardly-yet-ended swinkings have come about, either by forthole of wont land-wide meetings in Witenmoot, or by making those meetings worthless, we are fully togetherstemmed and onemood to see to it that hereafter our forestellers be neither left to an unyewissness for the time nor made unbrouksome to the ends for which they are meant. In this way whereunto we forcouthe:-

    I.
    That the folk of England, being at this day swithe unevenly dealt out by Reeveships, Burghsteads, and Boroughs for the choosing of their ambitmen in Witenmoot, ought to be more sakely chosen after the tale of inwoners; the umbstands whereof for reckoning, stowe, and way it was done are to be set down before the end of this gainward Witenmoot.
    -Hyge sceal ðe heardre, heorte ðe cénre, mód sceal ðe máre, þý úre mægen lytlaþ. -The Battle of Maldon
    -I love the great despisers, because they are the great adorers, and arrows of longing for the other shore. -Thus Spake Zarathustra

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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    100 Most Said Words In English: (reckoning for about half of all words in the Oxford English Corpus).

    1 the 2 be 3 to 4 of 5 and 6 a 7 in 8 that 9 have 10 I 11 it 12 for 13 not 14 on 15 with 16 he 17 has 18 you 19 do 20 at
    21 this 22 but 23 his 24 by 25 from 26 they 27 we 28 say 29 her 30 she
    31 or 32 an 33 will 34 my 35 one 36 all 37 would 38 there 39 their 40 what
    41 so 42 up 43 out 44 if 45 about 46 who 47 get 48 which 49 go 50 me
    51 when 52 make 53 can 54 like 55 time 56 no 57 just 58 him 59 know 60 take
    61 people 62 into 63 year 64 your 65 good 66 some 67 could 68 them 69 see 70 other
    71 than 72 then 73 now 74 look 75 only 76 come 77 its 78 over 79 think 80 also
    81 back 82 after 83 use 84 two 85 how 86 our 87 work 88 first 89 well 90 way
    91 even 92 new 93 want 94 because 95 any 96 these 97 give 98 day 99 most 100 us
    Now I shall speak to those in this list which are not of English frume. As you see most are true good English. 57. "just" is the first which is not of English frume. This word is also used in Dutch and Swedish, and was spread about first from France whence it sprang. Behold also how 60. and 81. come truly from Northish.

    57. JUST -
    61. PEOPLE -
    94. BECAUSE -


    Common Latinisms in Modern English and their English Equivalents
    well-known Latinish words in today's English and their English Matches

    just (this word is a bit overused and meaningless, and may harmlessly be left out in many settings) - only, right, even, *forthen (CH)

    people - folk, men, men & women, *lede (CH), mankind, some, many, most, all

    because - for that, seeing that or how, since, *forthy (pron. ? fer'DHEE)

    act - do, behave, work, play, make-believe; share, deal, head or bit of a play

    use - work with, *nutte /nUt/ [rhymes with soot, not suit] (Clark-Hall) or *neat; *nutte, wont

    face - *anleth (CH), look, *neb (CH); *chir to (etc. see below), *wharve (CH) /(h)worv/ to, look at, set the head to

    turn - *chir/ *chare (CH), *i-cherre (CH), *wharve

    interesting (a bit overused and meaningless nowadays, methinks, and a rather schoolish nutte , in frume meaning "concerning or of concern to personally") - wondersome, meaningful, good to think on, eye-catching, etc. Interested - willing,

    especially - above all, *sunder / *sunderly (CH) (also as adj. 'special')

    common - mean, allfolkly, allknown, alldaily, nuttely, widespread, onefold

    quite (we can talk about its Englishness, for the meantime...) - rather, right (adv.), wholly, fully, a mickle (muckle) bit , *teemly.

    very - see above; also: utterly, truly.



    ---

    Following are words which show up in the first 25 of lists by kind:

    Naming words:

    2. PERSON - man, woman, one, mannish being
    11. PART - share, deal, bit, lot, cut, meed, side, bite, limb, lump, stitch, shiver or skiver, clove/cleft/cloven thing, half, third, etc.
    15. PLACE - stead, stow, whereabouts; set, lay, stand, stow, asf.
    18. CASE - thing, deeming, onlainhood, fall, *limp, *fack; in case = if hap, in fall that
    19. POINT - end, wish, meaning; spot, mark, plot, dot, time
    20. GOVERNMENT - *Wielding or *Wieldness
    21. COMPANY - (house of) business, work-band, ring
    22. NUMBER - tally, reckoning,
    23. GROUP (ult. < Gmc. *krupp-) - flock, throng, league, body, club, ring, threat. Troupe is from OF < Frankish *throp = OE thorp
    24. PROBLEM - woe, hitch, hook, bother, pickle, unknown, riddle, (wrong, bad, hard, etc.) thing, task, happening, snarl, snare, worry
    25. FACT (overused word, sun. with "the...that") - thing, truth, trueness, fall, limp; in fact = in sooth, truly


    Doing Words:

    16. USE (dealt with above)
    23. TRY - undertake, go after, seek, shoot for, strive, work for, risk, take a stab at, give a go, go at, go for, have at, take up, weigh, deem; beset, bother, burden, grieve, harrow, irk, rack, smite, strike, worry, wound, weary

    To-Throwing Words:

    14. DIFFERENT - other, otherwise, odd, at odds, clashing, otherwise, unalike, unlike, weird, else, not the same, unwont,
    16. LARGE - big, great, broad, loose, roomy, wide
    20. IMPORTANT - weighty, big, needful, great, heavy, standout, far-reaching, foremost, earnest, high-up, *markworthy, top-notch, worthy, well-known, haughty, cold-shouldered, snooty, stuck-up, swaggering, be all and end all, big star, big shot, head -, main, foremost
    22. PUBLIC - open, open-door, free, *folkly, widespread; bodies, men, heads, cats, cattle, hangers-on, rabble, everyone, *allmennish
    25. ABLE (it is almost ywis that this word would hardly be seen at all had not our English today the full hue of the doing-word "can", above all in the unbounded bowing, as in OE "cunnan" t.i. we lack "to cun" as also "to shull" and "to mote/must"...)- deft, good at, easy, *nutteful for, clever, mighty to, strong to, keen, smart, skillful, skilled at, healthy, hearty, lusty, sound, dapper, burly, fit (?)

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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    Sib In Our Time


    We, the Theedish Leader and Foresitter, and the English First Thane, have had a further meeting today and are one in beworthing that the sake of English-Theedish ties is of the first weightiness for our two lands and for Europe.


    We hold the oneness underwrit last night and the English-Theedish Seawide Oneness as betokening the will of our two folks never to go to war with one another again.


    We are onemood that the means of thaughting shall be the means taken to deal with any other things that may bear on our two lands, and we are settled on furthering our work to get rid of all earthly fromes of strife, and thus to work to fasten the frith of Europe.


    My good friends, once again in our land, an English First Thane has come back from Theedishland bringing sib with orworth. I believe it is "sib for our time." Go home and get a good still sleep.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    Re: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric View Post
    I think the Latin Influence of the Fourth Period [14th to 18th centuries] is the worst, and should be the first to go.
    Some of my main problem with the loans of the Fourth Period is that they came into the language precisely because the borrowers felt the same kind of shame I feel (at least, that's what they said in their own defense during the 16th century, when opposition to these words was at its peak).
    I think it is worth getting a rounded view of this '4th Period' when looking at the Englishness of English.

    The period begins with some remarkable firsts;

    14th century;

    1349: 'Englysch' is permitted to be taught in schools.

    1362: Opening of Parliament took place in English and with debates in English. Courts allow pleading in English.

    15th century;

    1413: Royal court recognised English as the official language.


    16th century [some landmarks include];

    1559: Matthew Parker's collection of Old English manuscripts;
    1567: First OE work in print, a Homily of Aelfric

    1568: Wm Lambarde publishes 'Laws of Wessex'

    1571: Gospels in OE

    1572: 'The Society of Antiquaries' formed.
    Members include the 'Saxonists', Sir Robert Cotton, Sir Henry Spelman, John Speed, Richard Verstegen, William Camden

    1574: Asser's Life of Alred the Great.

    1586: 'Brittania', a topographical survey by Camden


    17th century;

    1605: 'Restitution' by Verstegan states that the monarchy is "descended of the chiefest blood royall of our ancient English-Saxon kings".

    1622: Cottonian Library established

    1639: Collection of English documents published by Spelman

    1642: 'St Edward's Ghost' by John Hare glorified the Germanic origins of English

    1643: Bede, Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Laws, published by Abraham Wheelock

    1659: Dictionary of Old English


    18th century;

    1700: Cottonian Library given to the nation

    1703-05: Geo Hickes' Northern Antiquities - includes the publication of the Old English Rune Poem.

    1711: Catalogue of OE documents, including Beowulf by Humfrey Wanley

    1715: Grammar of Old English by Elizabeth Elstob

    1723: 'Alfred, an Epick Poem', by Sir Richard Blackmore

    1732: 'History of Alfred the Great', portraying him as a patriot, scholar and benevolent renovator of the law

    1735: Statue of Alfred the Great by Rysbrack

    1740: Alfred, a Masque, by Thomson, Mallet & Arne

    1753: Cottonian Library becomes the foundation of the manuscript collection of the British Museum

    1756: Athelstan play by John Brown

    etc., etc.,
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

  9. #89
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    AW: Returning English to its Anglo-Saxon Roots

    Quote Originally Posted by Suut
    Sould German be 'cleansed', too? Should there now only be the word "fear" (Furcht) for Germans simply because there was no other word corresponding to "Respect" (Respekt) prior to the latin import?
    Achtung/achten is much more an actual synonym for Respekt/respektieren than Furcht/fürchten.

    Speaking of the question if German should be "cleansed": that job was already done. In early modern times there was quite a flood of "alien talk" in Germany, apart from Greco-Latin highbrow speech especially of French, but in the 17th, 18th and 19th century many Fremdwörter (foreign words; that we call such, what is in English "hard words", says already much about their "status" in the language and their perception by the speakers) replaced by German words or given German synonyms through the good work of language "purists", or they were pushed bayk if just voguish and unnecessary jargon. That was good, as they really exaggerated it with French stuff etc. in that time in Germany.

    Here for example some creations and Germanisations by Philipp von Zesen:

    erfolgreiche Eindeutschungen [Bearbeiten]
    Zesen erfand für zahlreiche Fremdwörter Eindeutschungen, die Eingang in die deutsche Sprache gefunden haben, wie Ableitung (für das Fremdwort Derivation), Abstand (Distanz), Angelpunkt (Pol), Anschrift (Adresse), Augenblick (Moment), Ausflug (Exkursion), Beifügung (Apposition), Beistrich (Komma), Besprechung (Rezension), Blutzeuge (Märtyrer), Bücherei (Bibliothek), Emporkömmling (Parvenü), Entwurf (Projekt), Farbgebung (Kolorit), Freistaat (Republik), Gesichtskreis (Horizont, Panorama), Glaubensbekenntnis (Credo), Gotteshaus (Tempel), Grundstein (Fundament), Kerbtier (Insekt), Kreislauf (Zirkulation), Leidenschaft (Passion), Letzter Wille (Testament), Mundart (Dialekt), Nachruf (Nekrolog), Sinngedicht (Epigramm), Sterblichkeit (Mortalität), Verfasser (Autor), Vollmacht (Plenipotenz), Wahlspruch (Devise), Weltall (Universum).
    Here some by Johann Heinrich Campe:

    Campe entwickelte für zahlreiche (ca. 11.500) Fremdwörter Eindeutschungen, von denen etwa 300 in den allgemeinen Sprachgebrauch aufgenommen wurden, beispielsweise

    altertümlich (für das Fremdwort antik),
    Erdgeschoss (Parterre),
    Esslust (Appetit),
    Feingefühl (Takt),
    fortschrittlich (progressiv),
    herkömmlich (konventionell),
    Hochschule (Universität),
    Lehrgang (Kursus),
    Randbemerkung (Glosse),
    Stelldichein (Rendezvous),
    Streitgespräch (Debatte),
    tatsächlich (faktisch),
    Voraussage (Prophezeiung),
    Wust (Chaos) und
    Zerrbild (Karikatur).
    Not that German was completely cleansed from Fremdwörter, and that's also not something I'd see as a desirable goal--but if it's not something like a technical-scientific special language, it is quite easy to write a German relatively free of Fremdwörter if one prefers to refuse the sphere of foreign words ...

    By the way, the word morphology was coined by Goethe, I believe (Morphologie). At least I remember having read that somewhere ...

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    @ Moody Lawless

    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless View Post
    I think it is worth getting a rounded view of this '4th Period' when looking at the Englishness of English.

    The period begins with some remarkable firsts;

    14th century;

    1349: 'Englysch' is permitted to be taught in schools.

    1362: Opening of Parliament took place in English and with debates in English. Courts allow pleading in English.

    15th century;

    1413: Royal court recognised English as the official language.


    16th century [some landmarks include];

    1559: Matthew Parker's collection of Old English manuscripts;
    1567: First OE work in print, a Homily of Aelfric

    1568: Wm Lambarde publishes 'Laws of Wessex'

    1571: Gospels in OE

    1572: 'The Society of Antiquaries' formed.
    Members include the 'Saxonists', Sir Robert Cotton, Sir Henry Spelman, John Speed, Richard Verstegen, William Camden

    1574: Asser's Life of Alred the Great.

    1586: 'Brittania', a topographical survey by Camden


    17th century;

    1605: 'Restitution' by Verstegan states that the monarchy is "descended of the chiefest blood royall of our ancient English-Saxon kings".

    1622: Cottonian Library established

    1639: Collection of English documents published by Spelman

    1642: 'St Edward's Ghost' by John Hare glorified the Germanic origins of English

    1643: Bede, Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Laws, published by Abraham Wheelock

    1659: Dictionary of Old English


    18th century;

    1700: Cottonian Library given to the nation

    1703-05: Geo Hickes' Northern Antiquities - includes the publication of the Old English Rune Poem.

    1711: Catalogue of OE documents, including Beowulf by Humfrey Wanley

    1715: Grammar of Old English by Elizabeth Elstob

    1723: 'Alfred, an Epick Poem', by Sir Richard Blackmore

    1732: 'History of Alfred the Great', portraying him as a patriot, scholar and benevolent renovator of the law

    1735: Statue of Alfred the Great by Rysbrack

    1740: Alfred, a Masque, by Thomson, Mallet & Arne

    1753: Cottonian Library becomes the foundation of the manuscript collection of the British Museum

    1756: Athelstan play by John Brown

    etc., etc.,
    I find it interesting that you felt a need to respond three times to that post. I must say, I'm getting really tired of bickering about this. Your responses have seemed to stray so far from what we were originally discussing that they're fueled more by a desire to keep the bickering than anything else. I'm just not enticed by that.

    I can say, in response to this list (without going down the tempting tangent of discussing its disingenuous qualities), that you really don't understand this concept of dividing Latin influence in English into periods, nor do you see what distinguishes the Latin influence of the Fourth Period from that of preceding periods. It has nothing to do with the time in which it occurred, nor does it have to do with anything else that was occurring at the same time. Furthermore, you still seem to think I was the one who came up with this system of discussing the various waves of Latin influence in our lexicon (I wasn't), no matter how many times I try to disabuse you of that belief.

    You seem to have some sort of agenda you're trying to push on this matter, and I can't quite put my finger on what it is or what your motives are. You seem pretty heated about it. You seem to want to keep shoving me and my thoughts into a mold so that you can point out the flaws you see in that mold. I've already said I have torn feelings on the matter. You seem to want to marry me to one subset of those feelings so you can shoot me down. I don't see why you need to do that. You also seem to continue wanting to make this a British-American fight, as though we are fated to be at odds with one another on this as accidents of birth. And as you address that conception you've created, you seem to want to cast the English of America as being somehow less English than the English of Britain, which is laughable at best — once an oak branches, no branch can continue to claim the trunk's status. I don't why you're leaving reason and decorum behind like this; I don't know why this has stirred your passions so much that your usually sound mind has left its usual way. All I can say is that I had no intention of offending you or of inciting your anger in this way. I thought we were just having an academic discussion. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

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