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Thread: Botticelli

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    Post Botticelli

    Have a look at this painting from 16th century Italian artist, Botticelli. All the females in the painting are Nordic or Nordish. This is by no means any exception...

    This masterpiece is in the Louvre, Paris. I had the privilege to observe it with my own eyes 2 days ago, along with other paintings like the Mona Lisa.

    For those who think Paris is all swarthy... think again. To my eyes it seems Paris has fewer immigrants than London (although still unacceptably many). And in the local population, the Nordic race is also well represented, besides Alpine, Mediterranean and other elements. This should hardly come as a surpise, since Paris is far north, and has absorbed many Germanic elements throughout the centuries.

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    Senior Member Med's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    Have a look at this painting from 16th century Italian artist, Botticelli. All the females in the painting are Nordic or Nordish.
    The majority of those women appear brachycephalic and hence Alpine, which is one of the 3 main racial elements of Northern Italy (along with Dinaric and Atlanto-Mediterranean). Their hair ranges from reddish-brown to golden, which is also consistent with Alpine ancestry, according to Coon. They may be considered "Nordish", but then so is Catherine Zeta Jones, so that means very little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer
    The majority of those women appear brachycephalic and hence Alpine, which is one of the 3 main racial elements of Northern Italy (along with Dinaric and Atlanto-Mediterranean). Their hair ranges from reddish-brown to golden, which is also consistent with Alpine ancestry, according to Coon. They may be considered "Nordish", but then so is Catherine Zeta Jones, so that means very little.
    It is impossible for anyone to see if those women are dolichocephalic, mesocephalic or brachycephalic, since their long hair masks the back of the head, and any length/breadth comparison.

    Their pigmentation alone (hair + eyes + skin) suggest more Nordic than Alpine characteristics. Look again please.

    These pictures have nothing to do with Catherine Zeta Jones.

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    I've posted many Botcielli painting's before. Despite Medhammers' claims of them being 'Mediterranean', I doubt anyone here could mistake the individuals portrayed in the paintings for Sicilians or Greeks. The dominant impression is one of North-Central European phenotype.

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    Although I'm not opposing any of the above views here, I have to point out something nevertheless.

    Sandro Botticelli is one of the Florentine masters of the Renaissance. Also apparent from his subject matters and how he handles them, he was also very much involved with the Neo-Platonist philosophy of his time. The Renaissance artists did use models but hardly strived for a true likeness. They almost always painted what was their "ideal", reminiscent of Plato's concept of "Idea" where we get the word "Ideal". If you look at Botticelli's women, they more or less look like the same person. The same goes for Leonardo's women; and in some cases men. Mona Lisa DOES look like St John the Baptist, for that was Leonardo's vision of the ideal human face. Another thing to consider is the "head-shape". In the Medieval and Renaissance times, women were known to shave their hairline to have unnaturalistically high foreheads; so, if you were to judge a high forehead by that, that would be a mistake. Same goes for eyebrows, all fashionable ladies shaved off them as well.

    I agree with the Nordish influence in the French people, especially those who are from the Northern parts. There is a considerable Celtic ancestry in the North-West of France as far as I know of as well. But to base this on paintings can be very misleading. It's important to keep in mind that almost all these artists were painting their versions of women and men; not of the people around them, and especially in the Late Medieval and Renaissance period, fair hair was equaled with purity and was used extensively in portraits of Mary, and other saints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rusalka
    . They almost always painted what was their "ideal", reminiscent of Plato's concept of "Idea" where we get the word "Ideal".
    Precisely. And contrary to the sophomoric opinions of a few posters here, the Renaissance ideal of female beuaty had pale skin, golden-blond hair and light eyes, not swarthy skin, black hair, and brown eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russian Patriot
    Precisely. And contrary to the sophomoric opinions of a few posters here, the Renaissance ideal of female beuaty had pale skin, golden-blond hair and light eyes, not swarthy skin, black hair, and brown eyes.
    True. It does not matter where the artists were from, even if there were a lot of "Mediterrenean" types around, they almost always painted within the "ideal" range of the Renaissance period. It only began to change during the Baroque period, with naturalism gaining more and more favor. It's like having skinny models in today's world, if some civilization, 500 years from now were to find these images and nothing else, I suppose they would think the same and label the late 20th-early 21st century people as having this typology in general.

    Art, in general, is a good way in terms of social analysis of an era; but it should never be taken literally, especially if we have information that backs up these idealistic leanings, such as for the Medieval-Renaissance periods.

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    The figures in those paintings look Nordid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    It is impossible for anyone to see if those women are dolichocephalic, mesocephalic or brachycephalic, since their long hair masks the back of the head, and any length/breadth comparison.
    The two women who are more or less facing forward have short, broad faces and small round noses. These are not characteristics associated with Nordics. They are, however, consistent with Alpine physiognomy.

    Their pigmentation alone (hair + eyes + skin) suggest more Nordic than Alpine characteristics. Look again please.
    Pigmentation is adaptable and therefore not a primary racial signifier. Why are you searching for Nordics in a country that anthropology tells us has but a tiny Nordic influence at best? Northern Italy is and has always been significantly Alpine. And anthropology also tells us that Alpines -- and even Dinarics and Mediterraneans to a certain extent -- can exhibit varying degrees of blondism, rufosity and freckling. In fact, Coon explicitly traces such features in Italy to those first two subraces. So when you see a northern Italian blonde, your first impression should not be "Nordic" but rather "Alpine", especially when her morphology isn't particularly Nordic.

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    Are the two females in the middle of this picture (from Italian artist Guido Reni) also "Alpine"? If so, then Norway and Sweden are full of Alpines.

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