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Thread: Germanics, Mass Movements, & Structured Organizations

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    Post Germanics, Mass Movements, & Structured Organizations

    While researching recently I found this quote concerning Flemish and Walloon Catholics rather interesting--any and all comments are welcome.

    "...Flemish Catholics show themselves to be significantly more active than French-speaking [Catholics]. The Germanic cultural context appears to furnish greater possibilities for the development of mass movements and structured organizations than Francophone society. This difference is not always fully evident given the unified structures [i.e., L'Eglise Catholique de Belgique] of these diverse movements, but the contrast becomes apparent upon closer examination."

    SOURCE: David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, & Todd M. Johnson; World Christian Encyclopedia...a Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World; 2nd Ed., Vol. 1, (New York: Oxford University Press, 2001), p. 105.

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    Hasn't got really to do something with it, but an interesting thing on German National Socialism is that the origin of the movement is in the catholic South, in Bavaria. Most of the great leaders of the movement were from Catholic parts in the South and the West, and the ideology of Hitler also has in its roots a certain Catholic, Austrian "smell".
    But since the late Twenties it gote a higher percentage of votes in the Protestant areas of the North and the East. The gap between Catholic and Protestant areas is directly visible if one compares the results of the Reichstag elections of the early Thirtees of the single little voting areas. The movement then also had a higher degree of members and organizations in the Protestant parts.

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    Aye, Thorburnulf, I think it's generally agreed that the early NSDAP borrowed considerably from Catholicism for precisely the reasons you give, for most of the founding members were at the very least Catholics by upbringing. For example, considering symbolism alone the hackenkreuz and the so-called 'magen-David' were essentially stolen from the old archival symbols of Catholicism; although I'd be the first to agree that Hitler probably stole the idea of the hacken. from the Freikorps! (and the Freikorps stole it from the Church who in turn stole it from the heathen! lol Arguably, though, it's hard to imagine the NSDAP ever coming into existence the way it did had in not been for the Catholic Church, and there are a plethora of reasons to support this.

    I think one of the main reasons later in time that Lutherans (primarily, north & east) became more ethusiatic over the party was that their churches were not bound to Rome but to their own 'home-turf churches,' so-to-speak. For Catholics, there were the views of the Vatican (outside of Deutschland) to consider as well as the party; there were no such 'outside' considerations for Lutherans. So, over time, for the party it would become easier to hang Hitlerfahnen in Lutheran churches than in Catholic ones (actually it wouldn't surprise me if not one Hitlerfahne ever hung in any Catholic facility). Considering how much the NSDAP owed to Catholicism it's interesting how all this happened the way it did.

    I think the authors of the quote I cite would agree, though, that a structured, 'mass-movement' oriented organization such as or along the lines of the NSDAP would have far more chances of success in a "Germanic cultural context," such as in Deutschland than in a "Francophone cultural context" such as in France. So, the question arises for me: what is it in these given cultures that makes this, presumably, the case? Surely, there are too many complexities involved to give an easy answer to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suomut2_13
    Aye, Thorburnulf, I think it's generally agreed that the early NSDAP borrowed considerably from Catholicism for precisely the reasons you give, for most of the founding members were at the very least Catholics by upbringing. For example, considering symbolism alone the hackenkreuz and the so-called 'magen-David' were essentially stolen from the old archival symbols of Catholicism; although I'd be the first to agree that Hitler probably stole the idea of the hacken. from the Freikorps! (and the Freikorps stole it from the Church who in turn stole it from the heathen! lol Arguably, though, it's hard to imagine the NSDAP ever coming into existence the way it did had in not been for the Catholic Church, and there are a plethora of reasons to support this.
    I'm not really sure if Hitler took the Swastika from the Freikorps. Some German Baltic Freikorps after WW1 had the Swastika on their helmets and used it first "prominently", but the symbol was already spreading as in völkisch circles in the late 19th and early 20th century. It was used in pamphlets and writings, and Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels e. g. had a Swastika flag on his castle in 1907 (if I remember correctly). I don't know who was really the first one of the Völkische who wrote about it or used it, perhaps Guido von List. I guess Hitler got really used to it from these circles, but it would be impossible to find the one image, the one writing from where he took it. I also know from books that there is a not too little Swastika in a church somewhere in the region of Linz/Upper Austria, and that Hitler alledgedly first saw it there.

    I think one of the main reasons later in time that Lutherans (primarily, north & east) became more ethusiatic over the party was that their churches were not bound to Rome but to their own 'home-turf churches,' so-to-speak. For Catholics, there were the views of the Vatican (outside of Deutschland) to consider as well as the party; there were no such 'outside' considerations for Lutherans. So, over time, for the party it would become easier to hang Hitlerfahnen in Lutheran churches than in Catholic ones (actually it wouldn't surprise me if not one Hitlerfahne ever hung in any Catholic facility). Considering how much the NSDAP owed to Catholicism it's interesting how all this happened the way it did.
    Yes, the Protestant church in the North was more deutschnational through itself. I don't think that the South and West Germans could be really called "less national" by themselves, but it's a milieu question: in the South and West simply the milieu where people grew up and spent their ordinary day was the Catholic church. And when this church gets in an opposition to the state and party because of its Catholic-"international" ideology the Vatican it causes a certain distance between the state and party and those who are bound to the church.

    I think the authors of the quote I cite would agree, though, that a structured, 'mass-movement' oriented organization such as or along the lines of the NSDAP would have far more chances of success in a "Germanic cultural context," such as in Deutschland than in a "Francophone cultural context" such as in France. So, the question arises for me: what is it in these given cultures that makes this, presumably, the case? Surely, there are too many complexities involved to give an easy answer to this.
    Perhaps a special Flemish "dynamic" has to do with the Flemish speciality of a long struggle for their own identity in a state which was in culture, state and society by the Romance Walloons. It would be worth comparing the Dutch in the Netherlands with the Flemish under this aspect.

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    Well, we're getting off the point quite a bit from my initial post, but what the heck? No one else seems to have any interest in the headline topic anyway! lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    I'm not really sure if Hitler took the Swastika from the Freikorps. Some German Baltic Freikorps after WW1 had the Swastika on their helmets and used it first "prominently", but the symbol was already spreading as in völkisch circles in the late 19th and early 20th century. It was used in pamphlets and writings, and Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels e. g. had a Swastika flag on his castle in 1907 (if I remember correctly). I don't know who was really the first one of the Völkische who wrote about it or used it, perhaps Guido von List. I guess Hitler got really used to it from these circles, but it would be impossible to find the one image, the one writing from where he took it. I also know from books that there is a not too little Swastika in a church somewhere in the region of Linz/Upper Austria, and that Hitler alledgedly first saw it there.
    Thank you for helping my memory as to the possibility of Hitler getting it from the völkisch circles; I'd forgotten about this. Would you or anyone else on the board happen to have an image or description of this flag von Liebenfels flew? The Hacken. is old as the hills and has been used by a whole lot of different folks, that much is for sure. I think you're right about the futility of trying to pinpoint EXACTLY where and when Hitler decided this was the 'emblem of all emblems,' so to speak. I think I know of the church/chapel you speak of, but I can't pinpoint precisely where it is either. I saw some video of it in one of these anti-Hitler documenteries I saw, as I recall it's indeed a hackenkreuz in gold with curved arms (rather circular). I wish I could recall the precise heraldic description, but alas I can't. Also, I think Hitler's grandparents or parents are buried in the graveyard of said church/chapel; it's Catholic, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    Yes, the Protestant church in the North was more deutschnational through itself. I don't think that the South and West Germans could be really called "less national" by themselves, but it's a milieu question: in the South and West simply the milieu where people grew up and spent their ordinary day was the Catholic church. And when this church gets in an opposition to the state and party because of its Catholic-"international" ideology the Vatican it causes a certain distance between the state and party and those who are bound to the church.
    I hear and appreciate very much what you say here. Man, Thorburnulf, I thought about typing up quite a bit on this, but perhaps I need to save all that for some other future thread. WW1 undermined so many things that so many folks were used to for nearly a thousand or more years one of them being the rule of Christian monarchs. In a nutshell, I suppose it was easier for Protestants to except this loss than Catholics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    Perhaps a special Flemish "dynamic" has to do with the Flemish speciality of a long struggle for their own identity in a state which was in culture, state and society by the Romance Walloons. It would be worth comparing the Dutch in the Netherlands with the Flemish under this aspect.
    Unless I'm mistaken the Flemmings are an ethnic majority in Belgium, but in spite of this it wouldn't surprise me one bit if many in the area, esp. the nobility and aristocracy, consider francais to be the 'superior' language and culture for all sorts of reasons going way back over the centuries, thus, explaining the STRONG sway francais seems to have over Belgium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suomut2_13
    [color=red]Thank you for helping my memory as to the possibility of Hitler getting it from the völkisch circles; I'd forgotten about this. Would you or anyone else on the board happen to have an image or description of this flag von Liebenfels flew? The Hacken. is old as the hills and has been used by a whole lot of different folks, that much is for sure. I think you're right about the futility of trying to pinpoint EXACTLY where and when Hitler decided this was the 'emblem of all emblems,' so to speak. I think I know of the church/chapel you speak of, but I can't pinpoint precisely where it is either. I saw some video of it in one of these anti-Hitler documenteries I saw, as I recall it's indeed a hackenkreuz in gold with curved arms (rather circular). I wish I could recall the precise heraldic description, but alas I can't. Also, I think Hitler's grandparents or parents are buried in the graveyard of said church/chapel; it's Catholic, of course.
    I'll look up ome books for exact descriptions for the Lanz v. Liebenfels flag, and I'll also try to find the name of the Upper-Austrian church with the giant Swastika.
    It's interesting, by the way, that you write Hackenkreuz. The normal German word for Swastika is Hakenkreuz ("hook cross"), but in some Bavarian and Austrian völkisch writings the alternative spelling respectively word Hackenkreuz (ca. "heel cross") was also in use in times before Hakenkreuz became the "norm" of the word through the National Socialists.

    Unless I'm mistaken the Flemmings are an ethnic majority in Belgium, but in spite of this it wouldn't surprise me one bit if many in the area, esp. the nobility and aristocracy, consider francais to be the 'superior' language and culture for all sorts of reasons going way back over the centuries, thus, explaining the STRONG sway francais seems to have over Belgium.
    The number of the population of the Flemmings is today a bit higher than those of the Walloons, but I think, in the beginning 19th century it was smaller. I'm not totally sure about the population numbers of Flemmings and Walloons at the beginning of "Belgium". But what I know clearly is that culture and politics in Belgium were totally dominated by the Walloons and that it took a long struggle during the whole 19th century up to the early 20th century until the Flemish culture and language got an equal status in the Belgian society. That's at least the great reason why the Flemmings have with the Vlaams Blok a strong folkish-nationalist movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    I'll look up ome books for exact descriptions for the Lanz v. Liebenfels flag, and I'll also try to find the name of the Upper-Austrian church with the giant Swastika.
    It's interesting, by the way, that you write Hackenkreuz. The normal German word for Swastika is Hakenkreuz ("hook cross"), but in some Bavarian and Austrian völkisch writings the alternative spelling respectively word Hackenkreuz (ca. "heel cross") was also in use in times before Hakenkreuz became the "norm" of the word through the National Socialists.
    Thanks, man. I recall seeing a von Liebenfels symbol one time that had a mounted armored knight in white marked with a black Hacken. Said symbolism drew heavily from the Teutonic Knights. I'd love to see his flag primarily to see what the man's heraldic tastes were! lol
    I'm glad you brought up this distinction auf deutsch between Hackenkreuz & Hakenkreuz, for I had no idea about what you say. In nearly every Eng.-Ger./Ger.-Eng. dictionary I've ever consulted, the Ger. translation of the Eng. 'swastika' was given as 'Hacken.' So, as you say, there are some Ger. speakers who employ it, and I would expect most Eng. speakers to use this too. For me, though, as far as meaning is concerned both versions mean the same thing, as would the Eng. phrase 'hooked-cross.' I'm one of these atypical persons who's always looking for roots in words, so hack- & hak- may look different, but to me personally I don't care which version is used as long I understand that they mean generally the same thing. Eng. speakers will more quickly recognize and understand the Ger. hack- prefix faster than the hak-, because there is a word in Eng. 'to hack,' meaning to cut something into pieces. It's etymology being: (modern Eng.) 'hack,' from (middle Eng.) hakken, fr. Old Eng./Ang.-Sax. -haccian; cognate to the althochdeutsch 'hacchon,' meaning in mod. Eng. 'to hack.' This diction for hacking (or cutting) things up was in all likely born from the instruments employed in such activity, e.g., the 'hook,' the Ang.-Sax. version being hoc. So, a sentence such as "he used a hook/hack-/hak- to hack it up,' says it all as to the meaning of these words! As for 'heel,' the idea is really the same in my mind as 'hook.' Like, "she used a heel to HACK him up," LOL
    Quite a long time ago I stopped using the term 'swastika,' because as a native speaker of Eng. I recognized it as an overtly alien term for a symbol that was NOT alien. The hooked-cross has always existed in Eng. culture and the CORRECT term for it, IMO, in Eng. is this phrase or even 'hooking' (pun intended, lol the two words together as Germans have done, thus 'hookedcross.' It's not like the hooked-cross arrived in the Eng. world one day on a boat from India and the Eng. all said: "look at this symbol, we've never seen it before, let's call it what the Indians do: a swastika!" Ha, Ha, no, that's not how it happened, lol It is my theory that the term 'swastika' became so vogue in the Eng.-speaking world for this symbol around the same time that 'Nazi Germany' became so unpopular. Most 'intellectuals' in the colleges & universities, the powers-that-were (and still are) in the 'mass media,' and others politically motivated against the Hitler regime really had no interest calling a hooked-cross a hooked-cross when it was more politically advantageous to call it a 'swastika.' Why have an Englishman going around calling a h.-cross a h.-cross simultaneous with a German calling it a Ha(c)kenkreuz when that would only help to foster a common Germanic bridge between the two parties when the desired goal of the above 'powers-that-be' was to have former group destroy the political leadership of the latter group. Afterall, many in the Eng.-speaking world had already had it primed/drilled into their heads via mass anti-German propaganda during WW1 that Germans were "Huns," i.e. "Asiatic;" so, getting English folks to call a h.-cross (a Germanic phrase) a 'swastika' (a non-Germanic term) only helped to further distort the Eng. world's view of the Ger. world as well helping to further promote the absudity that "Germans are a VERY foreign, VERY alien, Asiatic-like ppl." Additionally, and most importantly, these 'powers-that-were' absolutely had NO INTEREST in having the Eng.-speaking world considering the h.-cross a Christian symbol (as calling it a CROSS would) for doing such would only hinder the ongoing effort to portray most post-Germans as being 'wicked, apostate, non-Christian folks.' Thus, the absurdity: "we have a cross, they have a 'swastika;' we're the Christians, they're not." Of course, most Germans were Christian as were most Eng.; and Hitlerian Germany employed a Christian cross as did England (hypocitically, it was the U.S. Government the didn't have one all the while singing "Onward Christian Soldiers"). So, the severing of the common bonds of Christian faith was another vitally important motivation behind the promotion of the what I call the "hooked-cross is a 'swastika' movement" (within the English-speaking world).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    The number of the population of the Flemmings is today a bit higher than those of the Walloons, but I think, in the beginning 19th century it was smaller. I'm not totally sure about the population numbers of Flemmings and Walloons at the beginning of "Belgium". But what I know clearly is that culture and politics in Belgium were totally dominated by the Walloons and that it took a long struggle during the whole 19th century up to the early 20th century until the Flemish culture and language got an equal status in the Belgian society. That's at least the great reason why the Flemmings have with the Vlaams Blok a strong folkish-nationalist movement.
    Good points. Yeah, if one goes back far enough in time things really get complicated in that area. Belgium really is a young 'country,' and a rather non-sensical one at that, in certain respects, IMO. Years ago I used to know (online) and used to chat with a Flemish gal who was involved with a certain Flemmish Nationalist group I forget the name of. I don't think it was the Vlaams Blok. I've never heard of Vlaams Blok, actually; but then again I've been WAY out of touch with Euro. politics for a very long time now. I wish I were WAY out of touch with Amer. politics too, but it stays up in my face all the time, sadly--HARD to ignore

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    I'm surprised that dictionaries give the translation Hackenkreuz, because - as already said - you'll today hardly find anywhere that form. Hakenkreuz has 21,700 hits at Google, Hackenkreuz 345 (and already that seems quite much, in my opinion).
    In German, "to chop"/"to hack" also is hacken, and the instrument with which you hack is die Hacke (hoe, pickaxe ...). Hacke meaning "heel" has of course this origin, as the heel is the "hacking" part of the shoe.
    Calling the swastika Hackenkreuz comes of course from the imagination of the swastika rather being composed of four stylized Hacken (very generally here meaned as any sort of instrument or thing with which you hack) than four Haken (hooks).
    Though the orthography was a bit more loose 100 years ago called it Hackenkreuz, I don't think that any writer who wrote with consideration Hackenkreuz meant here Hacke as "hook" (der Haken), but that he indeed had the imagination of the swastika looking "hacking".
    Also, as said, it seems that Bavarian and Austrian writers tended more to the form Hackenkreuz, but perhaps I'm wrong here, because the centres of early völkisch thinking were Munich and Vienna, and so they generally wrote much more about the swastika.
    Hackenkreuz and Hakenkreuz are different pronounced (the first one with a short a, the second one with a long one). One wouldn't say der Hacken instead of der Haken for "the hook", also not in Bavarian-Austrian dialect (I know that). One would only write Hacken for "hook" if one is very weak in orthography, but that isn't to assume concerning to active völkisch authors who always wrote Hackenkreuz. The only possibility that Bavarian-Austrians could more tend to Hackenkreuz could be through a general higher tendence to such short vowels in the Bavarian-Austrian language area (though not at the word Haken). So a Bavarian-Austrian could tend more from his language use and feeling to Hackenkreuz, but if he does so, he has the imagination of a cross that is composed od stylized "hacking" parts, not of hooks.

    (Hope, I didn't write too confusing what I want to say here. )

    According to Wilfried Daim, Der Mann der Hitler die Ideen gab. Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels, Lanz von Liebenfels hoisted a swastika flag on his castle Werfenstein in Christmas 1907 (perhaps the first example of the use of a swastika flag in modern times). Lanz' flag was at its basis golden and showed four blue lilies around a red swastika. (There's no photo of the flag in Daim's book, but I remember that in the TV documentary Mein Krampf there's a film scene showing the hoisting of a swastika flag on Werfenstein - the films which Lanz' Neutempler made are from the late twenties, it of course doesn't show the first hoisting in 1907. I've got Mein Krampf somewhere on a video cassette, but I don't know in which box or cupboard it's buried.)
    There was a poem in Lanz' magazine "Ostara" on Werfenstein which mentioned the flag: "Die Quellen, die aus Rhätiens Gletscherhallen / seit ew'ger Zeit vom Inn zur Donau wallen, / im Reich der Ostara als mächt'ger Strom / dann grüßen Linz und seinen Dom. / Doch, wo Granit durchbrach der Wogendrang, / wo einst der Nibelungen Horn erklang, / wo jetzt der Strudel engt die Wellenpfade, / ragt eine Burg auf schroffem Felsgestade. / Da grüßt im hellen Frühlingssonnenschein, / das Kreuzesbanner hoch von Werfenstein." Of course dilettantic, but not bad...
    Lanz seemed to have used the swastika quite often. There's a picture of the front page of one "Ostara" issue with a knight having a lot of swastikas on his armour, and it also was on the title of several other issues and used as ornament and symbol elsewhere.
    The two völkisch authors who seemed to be mostly responsible for the spreading of the swastika symbol in pre-WW1 time were Alfred Schuler in Munich and Guido von List in Vienna who both wrote quite much about it.

    Now, according to Friedrich Heer, Der Glaube des Adolf Hitler, the swastika which Hitler must have seen already as child was in the Benedictine foundation Lambach. It was the heraldic figure of the abbot Theoderich Hagen and was above the portal of the religios foundation. It was a stylized swastika, a Wolfsangel. Hitler was in his childhood for two years in the monastery school of the foundation. (But the grave of his parents isn't there, it's in Leonding.)

    Vlaams Blok: From the Euro-right, the Vlaams Blok is the one which is most successfull by still keeping radical views on non-White immigrants. But though it is folkish-nationalist and abti-immigrant, the Vlaams Blok unfortunately is America- and "Western" orientated and also has no problem with Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggviulf
    I'm surprised...
    Thorburnulf, THANK YOU! for this now aged post! I owe you at least this much, and I apologize for a poor reply with this. I appreciate your work on my behalf.

    Sincerely,
    Suomut2_13

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