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Thread: Sacrifice, Nature of Religion / On Sacrificial Death

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    Member Awar's Avatar
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    Sacrifice, Nature of Religion / On Sacrificial Death

    I thought about religions. Both todays religions and those who have been around in the past. I understand that most cultures consider life to be a great possession, and I understand that human sacrifice is therefore the greatest gift ( supposedly ) a human can offer to a deity. But....what else causes sacrifices to be offered?

    The longer a religion exists, the more morbid it becomes, from youthful uprise to the steady but gloomy centuries of simply existing, without a clear sign from 'god'.

    Are there people who seek the truth as part of their profession? Do todays religions have special individuals who try to really contact god, who research the ways in which they can communicate with higher beings?

    Is this 'higher being' truly the God creator of the universe, or maybe it's a powerful force that has reason, and acts in ways we don't understand, but is not related to the ultimate deity.

    Perhaps there really is something, or a multitude of these 'somethings' who are supernatural, but maybe they too don't know 'God' personally.

    Perhaps all the sacrifice in the past, in the name of 'heathen' religions has been done to please some very real beings.

    Just a silly example:

    What if the catholic church has people who work at discovering the way to communicate with actual deities who are closer to us than 'god' is.

    What if these people discover that sacrifice is the only way to directly contact these entities?

    What if we discover that 'god' is not a benevolent force, and that life is just an accident that sometimes happens in the great scheme of things, but due to it's fragile nature it soon fades and disappears, and no obe 'higher' even blinks about it

    Perhaps the old religions went further in discovering the scheme of things, and the most brutal ( in todays visage ) things done in the name of 'gods' really worked, and really were necessary. ( even if these were just whims of these deities ).

    Maybe after all, there really is a pantheon of deities which act as they please, sometimes wise, sometimes childish, maybe the entire christianity is just a little prank of theirs...

    Maybe, right at this moment, they are playing with scientists, giving them contradictory results in quantum physics .

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    Senior Member Phlegethon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    Perhaps the old religions went further in discovering the scheme of things, and the most brutal ( in todays visage ) things done in the name of 'gods' really worked, and really were necessary.
    Well, as none of these religions is still with us they cannot have been that successful. The Mayas, world record holders in human sacrifices, apparently were unable to purchase divine protection through sacrifices and were subsequently obliterated. I guess that is the reason why the more popular modern religions gave up that pratice. Too much bad PR and too few actual success stories.
    And all my youth passed by sad-hearted,
    the joy of Spring was never mine;
    Autumn blows through me dread of parting,
    and my heart dreams and longs to die.

    - Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850)

    Real misanthropes are not found in solitude, but in the world; since it is experience of life, and not philosophy, which produces real hatred of mankind.

    - Giacomo Leopardi (1798-1837)

  3. #3
    MikaelXII
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    Post German Ancient Beliefs

    Does anyone in here know the german ancient, pagan beleifs. And can explain them.
    The reason i ask is that recently i came across a painting of a sacrifice at the Altar of Krodo, to the God Krodos. And i have no idea who he was, or how the german pagan beleifs worked. But i assume someone here does ?

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    I also never heard before of Krodo. From that what one gets through Google with the searchwords "krodo germanen" or "krodo sachsen", allegedly there existed an altar of Krodo or Satar, a deity of healthiness, life and rogue, in Bad Harzburg (Harz mountains), the Saxon population there sacrified to him. His symbols were boiler and wheel. "Krodo", as far as I see, is etymologically related with "Geiröd", the name of the giant of the Germanic legends (just as the figures are similar)
    According to the legend it was destroyed in 780 through Charlemagne.

    Here's a wall painting from the Emperor's Palace in Goslar which shows the distruction of the statue of Krodo (Satar), of course somehow shown as disgusting idol:

    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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    Senior Member Annikaspapa's Avatar
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    Post Re: German Ancient beleifs

    Quote Originally Posted by Demigorgona
    Here's some good sites on it:

    http://www.lysator.liu.se/religion/neopagan/asatru.html
    ...clipped for brevity...
    http://www.asatrulore.org
    For those who read German, I would like to add to this listing of links:
    http://ahnensitte.net/ (highly recommended!!!)
    http://www.asatru.de/jotunheim.htm

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    Senior Member Vestmannr's Avatar
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    Post Re: German Ancient beleifs

    I had been taught that Irminsul and the Wotanist religion were competing and hostile faiths (as were the followers of Nerthus.) I was pretty sure the Ahnenerbe leaned more towards the Irminsul?

    On a side note: How many have been to Externsteine? Fascinating place.

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    Post Re: German Ancient beleifs

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontiersman
    How many have been to Externsteine? Fascinating place.
    I've visited the site a number of times. Whenever the opportunity presents itself I try to renew my acquaintance. When I'm in the area I try to pair my visit with a stop at the Hermannsdenkmal just outside of Detmold.

    Your query reminded me of this account of Savitri Devi's visit to the site:
    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/rocks_01.htm

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    Senior Member Moody's Avatar
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    On the Sacrificial Death:

    Odin's sacrifice is the central fact of his worship.
    This kind of sacrifice runs through Aryan spirituality, as Rahul pointed out;

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahul
    Here is The Gita!

    Brahma arpanam Brahma Havir
    Brahmagnau Brahmana Hutam|
    Brahma Eva Tena Gantavyam
    Brahma Karma Samadhina||
    The above is from 4:24 of the Bhagavad Gita.

    To give an English translation of this, and the surrounding verses either side to add context;

    "He who is without attachment, free, his mind centred in wisdom, his actions, being done as a sacrifice, leave no trace behind.

    "For him, the sacrifice itself is the Spirit; the Spirit and the oblation are one; it is the Spirit itself which is sacrificed in Its own fire, and the man even in action is united with God, since while performing his act, his mind never ceases to be fixed on Him.

    "Some sages sacrifice to the Powers; others offer themselves on the altar of the Eternal.

    "Some sacrifice their physical sense in the fire of self-control; others offer up their contact with external objects in the sacrificial fire of their senses ..."
    [The Geeta, 4:23-26]

    Of the following passage from the Norse 'Havamal', Guido von List says;

    "The Eddic 'Song of the High One', which portrays Wuotan's sacrificial death, and which reminds us of the mystery of Golgotha in more than one respect".
    [von List, 'The Secret of the Runes']

    Havamal:
    Wounded I hung on a wind-swept gallows
    For nine long nights,
    Pierced by a spear, pledged to Odhinn,
    Offered, myself to myself
    The wisest know not from whence spring
    The roots of that ancient rood.
    This reminds us also of the mythos of the 'spear of destiny', which Trevor Ravenscroft describes in his famous book;



    This is quite profound:
    From Ymir's sacrifice, Yama's forfeiting life eternal-then the Purusha lore.
    Ymir is the frost giant who was nourished by Audhumla, the sacred cow, before being sacrificed by the Norse gods; from his body was the world made:

    Of Ymir's flesh the earth was shaped,
    the barren hills of his bones,
    and of his skull the sky was shaped,
    of his blood, the briny sea,
    of his hair, the trees ...
    [from the Elder Eddas]

    While Yama is the Vedic first man, who in the Gita is identified with death [Geeta X:28-31]

    "Purusha is actionless. No action is possible in Purusha".
    [Sri Chinmoy]


    "For him, the sacrifice itself is the Spirit; the Spirit and the oblation are one; it is the Spirit itself which is sacrificed in Its own fire, and the man even in action is united with God, since while performing his act, his mind never ceases to be fixed on Him.
    [The Geeta, 4:24]
    The word used here, 'oblation', reminds us of the Eucharist:

    OBLATION (presenting of bread and wine to God in) Eucharist; a thing offered to God, sacrifice, victim; donation for pious uses. From the Latin oblatus, to offer.

    This must be related to the rune Gebo;

    The rune of giving and receiving, the rune of sacrifice.

    [note that the Anglo-Saxon rune row, the 'futhorc', adds a rune based on 'gebo', which it calls 'ger', or 'spear'!]

    The Ger or Spear Rune.

    To the Norse, the sacrifice was made by despatching the victim with the holy sword of Odin.

    As well as the Havamal, there are references to this in the Norse Sagas, such the Ynglinga Saga, Gautreks Saga, Eyrbyggja Saga and the poem the 'Battle of the Goths and the Huns'.

    Those to be killed by the spear were 'given to Odin', just as Odin had sacrificed himself by the spear.


    Odin's Sacrifice, in the form of the Tarot card, 'The Hanging Man' - hanging and burning were also sacred to Odin.

    Now this Aryan cult of sacrifice carried on into the Christian era; it was just Christianised. It is from this Christianisation that we get the mythos of the Spear of Destiny mentioned above.

    When Christ's side is pierced by the Roman centurion Gaius Cassius [who came to be known as 'the spearman', i.e., 'Longinus'] at the Crucifixion, this is taken as a version of the Aryan spear sacrifice.

    To Christians, Longinus's act fulfilled a prophecy in the Old Testament;

    "And they shall look upon me when they have pierced".
    [Zechariah 12:10]

    The moment of fulfilment is described in the New Testament;

    "When they came to Jesus, they found that he was already dead ... One of the soldiers stabbed his side with a lance, and at once there was a flow of blood and water".
    [John 19:34]

    Another connection is that Longinus was supposed to be cured of blindness after this [while Odin is blind in one eye].

    Also, Longinus catches some of Christ's blood in a cup - the origin of the Grail Mythos, and of the Holy Blood.

    To return to the Vedic Purusha; this is defined thus:

    Purusha: in the Rig Veda [RV 10:90] he is the primeval spiritual and person-like reality, the Absolute, and the cosmogonic source of one quarter of whom the whole manifestation emerged through the process of a COSMIC SACRIFICE, while the other three quarters remained transcendent.
    [Hindu Dictionary, Werner]

    So in this, and in Odin, and in Longinus and the Spear, we are in essentially the same area of spirituality.
    Last edited by Moody; Tuesday, September 19th, 2006 at 05:51 PM.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Post Re: The Sacrificial Death

    That is very true, more profound things are very simple.

    All great nobility is in the cultivator toiling in the village, then this very cultivator rises and gives his blood to fight for the land, under a sovereign.

    Its not a bookish knowledge, I have seen this among our people, precisely in my own line, and in many a Norse people, including a friend to whom I may not have proved myself a worthy brother.

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