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Thread: Race and Ethnos

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    I had just finished reading Ilana Mercer's pathetic attack on Kevin MacDonald. Generally, the whole Jewish conspiracy is tiresome, but sometimes they press it hard in screaming denial.

    Physical race is clear enough. Mightn't we call 'soul-race' tribal affiliation and identity? It is at this level that a person can have multiple loyalties and not all of them based on biological relationship. One can be devoted to family and the Communist tribe-feeling.

    Spirit-race as (heritable?) instinct. I believe there is indeed foundational building blocks of character formation that are inherited and involuntary. I think of it as defining a range of possible behaviors - narrow in some aspects, broad in others. But there are so many elements to personality proving any one is difficult...though a recent study in New Zealand hinted at heritable criminal predisposition.

    I could no more be an American liberal than I could change into an ostrich. But some people are so maleable they can change radically, and several times, in one lifetime. Then there are those that are 'maleable' by design.

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    >>>I had just finished reading Ilana Mercer's pathetic attack on Kevin MacDonald. Generally, the whole Jewish conspiracy is tiresome, but sometimes they press it hard in screaming denial.

    Few things irritate me as much as people who attack something, in this case a book by Kevin MacDonald, without understanding it. MacDonald denies the existence of a Jewish conspiracy in CoC. Mercer would have known that if she had ACTUALLY read the book.
    The Phora

    "There are no principles; there are only events. There is no good and bad, there are only circumstances. The superior man espouses events and circumstances in order to guide them. If there were principles and fixed laws, nations would not change them as we change our shirts and a man can not be expected to be wiser than an entire nation."
    —Honoré de Balzac

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    MacDonald replies:

    http://forums.originaldissent.com/sh...ight=macdonald

    By Kevin MacDonald
    © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com


    WorldNetDaily columnist Jon Dougherty, in a notably wise and judicious article on Friday, deplored the fact that:


    In 2003 America, in order to silence their critics an increasing number of people no longer feel it's necessary to debate with facts to prove their point. Instead, they choose to shout down detractors with infantile rhetoric, name-calling and insults ...


    And Dougherty had the considerable courage to name the leaders in this trend: Abraham Foxman and the Anti-Defamation League. As I have previously noted, the ADL has had no hesitation in pinning the label of "anti-Semite" on anyone who notices the Jewish backgrounds, the long history of pro-Israel activism, and close personal and professional relationships among the neocon cabal in the Bush administration.

    Ironically, a classic example of this "infantile rhetoric" appeared on WND the same day: Ilana Mercer's column denouncing as "anti-Semitism" my discussion of neoconservatism on Vdare.com. Mercer provides an absurd caricature of my views on neoconservatism and other Jewish intellectual and political movements. She says that I depict the "gullible gentiles" in these movements as "marionettes" manipulated by wily Jews.

    Where do I say anything resembling that? In fact, I think that the motives of these non-Jews are a complicated mix of genuine belief and personal ambition. (The attractions of the neocon infrastructure in the media, politics and academe are obvious enough.) But my point remains: The founders and the core members of the movement are Jews who see their involvement as furthering Jewish interests.

    There is nothing inherently implausible about hypothesizing that minority activist movements like neoconservatism would be willing to recruit some majority group members. It makes excellent marketing sense to have at least some spokespeople who resemble the target audience. I have found numerous other examples in my work.

    Mercer also argues that the elected and senior appointed Bush administration officials, in the main not Jewish, ought to be held responsible for the "administration's blunders." This is true, but it does not in the least delegitimize consideration of what motivated the administration's neoconservative members and friends – who generally are Jewish.

    Revealingly, Mercer places the term "Jewish ethnic interests" in quotes – as if to question that there is such a thing as Jewish interests at all. This is the core of the problem.

    We all accept that African-American leaders like Jesse Jackson are pursuing their perceived ethnic interests. No one would deny that the Mexican-American pro-immigration activists advocating open borders are pursuing their ethnic interests. But Jews are somehow exempted from anything so base as even having ethnic interests.

    For instance, Jewish pressure for U.S. support of Israel must be because Israel is a shining beacon of democracy – never mind the reality that Israel is (and is, arguably, perfectly entitled to be) an expansionist ethnostate. And Jewish support for mass immigration must be because they are liberals bent on "promoting justice." But I believe I have demonstrated that the pro-immigration elements in American public life have, for over a century, been largely led, funded, energized and organized by the Jewish community as part of a conscious strategy to lessen U.S. ethnic and cultural homogeneity, a development Jewish leaders are on record saying is in their interests. My view of the critical role of Jewish organizations in altering U.S. immigration policy is a mainstream scholarly opinion (see, e.g., Hugh Davis Graham's "Collision Course: The Strange Convergence of Affirmative Action and Immigration Policy in America"; New York, Oxford University Press, 2002, pp. 56–57).

    Mercer may be right that it is a poor long-term strategy for Jews to allow the immigration of large numbers of Muslims. Some isolated Jews have worried about this, most notably Stephen Steinlight, a senior fellow at the American Jewish Committee. But to date, Jewish organizations have not abandoned their pro-immigration policies.

    Mercer, in an amazing gap in logic, accuses me of having a "messy habit of mind" for ignoring that "on issues of race and immigration, neocons are not that different from liberals."

    But of course, that is exactly my point: Liberal immigration policy has been supported by the overwhelming majority of Jews across the Jewish political spectrum, and this is quite the opposite of traditional conservative attitudes. This is one reason why I believe the neoconservative preferences for mass immigration prove they are an ethnic, rather than an ideological grouping.

    I am a professional academic. My work has focused on the influence of the Jewish identity on intellectual, social and political life. Others laboring in parallel rows in the same vineyard chose to consider other ethnic groups. They are never attacked.

    Ilana Mercer reminds us that Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Why is not scholarship sometimes only scholarship?

    http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34824



    Quote Originally Posted by OnionPeeler
    I had just finished reading Ilana Mercer's pathetic attack on Kevin MacDonald. Generally, the whole Jewish conspiracy is tiresome, but sometimes they press it hard in screaming denial.

    Physical race is clear enough. Mightn't we call 'soul-race' tribal affiliation and identity? It is at this level that a person can have multiple loyalties and not all of them based on biological relationship. One can be devoted to family and the Communist tribe-feeling.

    Spirit-race as (heritable?) instinct. I believe there is indeed foundational building blocks of character formation that are inherited and involuntary. I think of it as defining a range of possible behaviors - narrow in some aspects, broad in others. But there are so many elements to personality proving any one is difficult...though a recent study in New Zealand hinted at heritable criminal predisposition.

    I could no more be an American liberal than I could change into an ostrich. But some people are so maleable they can change radically, and several times, in one lifetime. Then there are those that are 'maleable' by design.

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    You might find the material on the following site enlightening:

    http://jewishtribalreview.org/

    I would also suggest that you actually familiarize yourself with the work of Prof. MacDoanld:

    http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/

    I believe that then you will be able to speak from an informed perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by OnionPeeler
    I had just finished reading Ilana Mercer's pathetic attack on Kevin MacDonald. Generally, the whole Jewish conspiracy is tiresome, but sometimes they press it hard in screaming denial.

    Physical race is clear enough. Mightn't we call 'soul-race' tribal affiliation and identity? It is at this level that a person can have multiple loyalties and not all of them based on biological relationship. One can be devoted to family and the Communist tribe-feeling.

    Spirit-race as (heritable?) instinct. I believe there is indeed foundational building blocks of character formation that are inherited and involuntary. I think of it as defining a range of possible behaviors - narrow in some aspects, broad in others. But there are so many elements to personality proving any one is difficult...though a recent study in New Zealand hinted at heritable criminal predisposition.

    I could no more be an American liberal than I could change into an ostrich. But some people are so maleable they can change radically, and several times, in one lifetime. Then there are those that are 'maleable' by design.

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    Post Interestingly...

    Skadi News posted a similar refutation of Mercer.

    http://skadi.info/modules.php?name=N...article&sid=92

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    Post Race and Ethnos, Part II

    This is a repost of original discussion which went seriously off-topic. I've collected in short most the related posts and summarized/paraphrased them (like the 'minutes' of a meeting). If I left someone out, my apologies.


    Race and Ethnos

    Understanding the Racial Question

    by Siegfried Aurelius (updated, paraphrased):

    There is so much evidence for racial differences available, that I will not bother to argue about it here. The races are not equal, just like individuals are not equal.
    Unfortunately, the fact that the White European race is one of the most intelligent - and the most creative - of all races, has led some to believe that every person with European origins is worth saving. Take, for example, the ‘Aryan Nations’-project. It was supposed to become a strong community of ‘racially conscious’, Christian Whites, who had enough of the modern world and its interracial chaos.
    It was a flop.

    All kinds of idiots were accepted, as long as they had light skin. It gained a reputation as a sort of shelter for White dropouts, homeless people, and general losers. I suppose none of you is surprised to hear the project imploded as a result of that.

    We need to understand that the ‘White European race’ is nothing more than a biological, taxonomic construct. The members of our race are diverse, both physically and mentally. Paradoxically enough, in order to secure the existence of our people and a future for White children, we must stop caring about the entire race, and focus on the Whites who are actually worth saving. This is where the ‘ethnos’ comes in.

    The Ethnos
    While the race is a biological (natural) division and a taxonomic (classified) construct, the ‘ethnos’ (racial ethnicity + ethos) is a biological-spiritual community. It is a group of people, connected not only by blood, but also by world-feeling. The members of an ethnos are typically of the same race, but the ethnos usually does not cover the entire race. All high cultures grew out of such an ethnos. Sometimes an ethnos placed itself as a ruling caste on top of lesser peoples, and then enforced its culture on all its subordinates, as happened in ancient India.

    The Jewish Ethnos
    The Jewish ethnos is probably the best known in the modern world. It was strong enough to survive even under the most hostile circumstances. For twenty centuries, the Jews lived in ‘diaspora’ among the Gentiles, the very people they despised, and yet they thrived. They retreated into their own circles, and only worked inside the system of their hosts when it suited their interests. This way, they not only managed to survive as a race and an ethnos, but to actually expand their power, and to reclaim, in historically unprecedented style, the homeland they lost two millennia ago.

    Conclusion
    There is a lot we can learn from this. Instead of accepting every fair-skinned moron as a member of our movement (our ethnos in an embryonic stage), we must only accept the most intelligent and dedicated individuals. We cannot save the entire race, but many do not deserve to be saved anyway, and would only damage our movement, and thus our rising ethnos.

    ---------------

    Moody Lawless (paraphrased): Isn't political power required? Without state power, eugenic attempts at improvement or preservation, will fail.

    ---------------

    Discussion: [Discussion side tracks to outgroup comparisons.]

    ---------------

    OnionPeeler: [Suggests the discussion is one of diasporic modes rather than political ambitions. Suggests 'quality control' is one of the issues of 'recruitment'.] Aurelius concurs.

    ---------------

    Moody Lawless: [Points out that the examples of 'success' provided are religous - Jews, Amish. And "religious agreement is abysmal amongst White Nationalists." Further, "a unified out-look must be arrived at at some point." But rejects diaspora as defeatist.]

    Moody: [Suggests political avenues must be left open.]

    --------------

    OnionPeeler: [Agrees that 'religion' can divide or unite. "Is is possible to form a world view or 'supra-religion' that minimizes friction between itself and existing religions?" -- the 'ethnos' originally proposed.]

    --------------

    Moody: [Instead of an 'over religion', suggests a syncretic approach ala Rome. But believes: "I suppose that only paganism, pantheism, polytheism and Aryanised Christianity are compatible with White Nationalism, in truth."]

    --------------

    Thorburnulf: "Here's my view of that all:

    If I would simplify a bit and draw some great divisions within our people - without thinking of other races etc. -, I would divide between

    a) the geniuses: those who are the great creators in culture, policy and society;

    b) the talented: the leading elements in culture, politics, administration, society and economy;

    c) the good average of good-willing ordinary people who just do their work: of course this is quite a concentrating term for a broad range of many different sections down to the little street-cleaner;

    d) the asocial, inferior scum of a society;

    That what is the core of the "ethnos" or perhaps those who keep a society, a culture running and proceding are a) together with b), but of course they couldn't exist without the broader masses of c). And also of course in a racially healthy society there are no exclusive castes and there would be current interaction between higher and less higher social niveaus.

    My dream society, even if it hadn't to deal with racially aliens indeed would practice an inner eugenics and try to clean up itself from inferior elements in uninterrupted succession.

    [...and...]

    The movement must keep the balance between lower and higher elements, because only the current contact with lower - but of course good lower - elements of society will prevent that it becomes an intellectual discussion club of dreamers who are far away from all social reality. "

    ------------

    OnionPeeler: [Suggests an exemplary, "ultra-traditional reference population". Suggests the ethnos (over religion) should inspire passion. ]

    ------------

    Moody: [Suggests pan-Europeanism + sacred nationalism]

    ------------

    Aurelius: [Uses the term 'counter-culture' ~ 'reference population.']

    ------------

    Dr. Solar Wolff: [Suggests only only geographic isolation could form "breeding grounds."]

    ------------

    ...the anthropologists take over the discussion...


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Given that this is the Philosophy and Ideology section, let's try to resume. The author was clear that he was exploring:

    1) diasporic survival modes for (inititially) small groups
    2) What 'ethnos' would be conducive to uniting such a group?
    3) What recruitment filters are appropriate?
    Last edited by OnionPeeler; Sunday, October 26th, 2003 at 04:28 AM.

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    Questions;
    1) diasporic survival modes for (inititially) small groups
    2) What 'ethnos' would be conducive to uniting such a group?
    3) What recruitment filters are appropriate?

    Moody Lawless replies; I contend that a philosophical discussion of this issue would have to include the totality of existence.

    This means that a Race/Ethnos must be seen as an organic entity which is united totally to its history, its traditions, and its homelands.

    We cannot artificially disassociate the race/ethnos from those other factors in philosophy; in that connexion, I find the word "recruitment" strangely sterile.

    It seems that there is an underlying 'Brave New World' sub-text to the question, which suggests that a Race/Ethnos is to be somewhere 'created' somewhere in the abstract.

    So I would say that the Race/ethnos which remains in its ancient homeland is the ideal to which all other variations should aspire.
    This is fundamental, and prior to any forms of eugenics.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Questions;
    1) diasporic survival modes for (inititially) small groups
    2) What 'ethnos' would be conducive to uniting such a group?
    3) What recruitment filters are appropriate?

    Moody Lawless replies; I contend that a philosophical discussion of this issue would have to include the totality of existence.

    This means that a Race/Ethnos must be seen as an organic entity which is united totally to its history, its traditions, and its homelands.

    We cannot artificially disassociate the race/ethnos from those other factors in philosophy; in that connexion, I find the word "recruitment" strangely sterile.

    It seems that there is an underlying 'Brave New World' sub-text to the question, which suggests that a Race/Ethnos is to be somewhere 'created' somewhere in the abstract.

    So I would say that the Race/ethnos which remains in its ancient homeland is the ideal to which all other variations should aspire.
    This is fundamental, and prior to any forms of eugenics.
    I didn't suggest Whites should move out of Europe to build societies in other lands, did I? The communities I mentioned could just be formed somewhere in Europe.

    edit:
    BTW, if the ancient homelands are so important to you, how does that affect your opinion on the colonisation of space?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried Augustus
    I didn't suggest Whites should move out of Europe to build societies in other lands, did I? The communities I mentioned could just be formed somewhere in Europe.

    edit:
    BTW, if the ancient homelands are so important to you, how does that affect your opinion on the colonisation of space?
    Moody Lawless replies; My response was directed at the statement made by Onion Peeler as I made clear - I really am not sure what you are "suggesting".
    My point still stands; a philosophical concept of race/ethnos must include the historical/homeland aspect.
    Why?
    Because we must ask ourselves not only 'what?', but also 'When?', 'Where?' and 'How?'
    We're poor philosophers if we don't do that.
    To talk of 'recruitment' goes against the whole organic ethos of philosophical racialism.

    As to the 'edit' question - I do not believe that Space is occupied by humans. However, if Mars is, by some bizarre chance, already inhabited by humans, then I hope we would respect their homeland rights as 'homo sapiens martianus'.
    Ask a silly question ...
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    As to the 'edit' question - I do not believe that Space is occupied by humans. However, if Mars is, by some bizarre chance, already inhabited by humans, then I hope we would respect their homeland rights as 'homo sapiens martianus'.
    Ask a silly question ...
    I am very well aware that it's extremely unlikely that there are human beings on Mars - it seems you completely missed my point. What I meant to ask is: if you think the ancient homeland is so important, would you oppose thefuture colonisation of Space by human beings? As you seem to stress the tie between blood and soil, would it go against your ethos to leave it?

    This may seem a silly question to you, but for some the Soil is immensely important. To quote Spengler:

    A race has roots. Race and landscape belong together. Where a Plant takes root, it dies also. There is certainly a sense in which we can, without absurdity, work bakwards from a race to its "home," but it is much more important to realise that the race adheres permanently to its home with some of its most essential characters of body and soul. If in that home, if tha race cannot now be found, this means that the race has ceased to exist. A race does not migrate. men migrate and their successive generations are born in everchanging landscapes, but the landscape excercises a secret force upon the plant nature in them, and ecentually the race expression is completely transformed by the extinction of the old and the appearance of a new one.
    And to quote Rahul:

    I can agree to Spengler here given 1947 and how our own folk, got completely transformed following the migration from that landscape to this one. But somehow that landscape is still etched on to my mind's collections, and I feel that to be my real home. And there alone can I be with my Race again.

    The feeling is very strong and it is backed by almost other evidence provided by Geology, Matereology and Anthropology.

    I agree to Spengler here.

    Some hidden force does indeed effect a change, achange against our life's destiny, or otherwise what can explain the American not rooting for the soil of Europe, However there are exceptions with certainty, as I am one in my own context, similar in many ways.

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