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Thread: Germany's Forgotten Victims - Allied Atrocities Against the Germans (WWII)

  1. #31
    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFM Schörner
    Ross,
    instead to answer my question you come with the next topic.
    So i guess you agree with my arguments.
    OK.
    What question?

    You can disprove presented sources?

    Instead of talking about 'Nazi death camps', you could ask yourself, how was it possible, that the Wehrmacht cought 3 million soldiers within the first three months of Barabarossa.
    Simple. Russians thought that Germans came to liberate them from Jewish Communists. Instead Germans started to mass murder Slavs. Russians started to fight back and ended the war in Berlin. Simple.

    You could ask yourself, what a tremendous logistical problem, 3 million pows mean for an army in war and what Germany from your point of view should have done with the pows, if not putting into camps?
    Can you prove that Germans WANTED but WERE UNABLE to feed their POWs?

    The mortality rate of Russians was 75%, the mortality rate of Americans and Brits and the French - 1%.

    Ever seen The Hart's war? Being in one camp, American POWs were well fed, while Russians were starving...

    You could ask yourself further, how it came, that 4 million russian soldiers were stationed at the german border?
    You could ask yourself, how it was possible, that the Wehrmacht destroyed 2000 russian fighters in the first 24 hours?
    You could ask yourself, how military troops are placed in the case of defense and how they need to be placed prior an attack.
    You could ask yourself about the millions of maps the Wehrmacht captured and why it were maps not showing mother Russia - excuse, mother Russia didn't exist, but only the bolshevistic SU - but Germany.

    If you have asked yourself these questions and find some good answers, you can come back.
    Otherwise i suggest you to learn history first (Russia has some excellent historians, like Victor Suworow) and do not repeat the usual primitive propaganda.
    Please, don't post BS by Victor REZUN, a UKRAINIAN defector from GRU, ever again, ok?

    His fantasies were disproven long time ago, if any serious person believed in them from the beginning.

    Ok, but I'll answer ALL your question (of course I can refute your, or rather Rezun's funy claims) if you'll answer ONE mine: why Germans, who were so desperate to get as much tanks as possible (and used French, Czech and Polish tanks) did not used ANY (ok, maybe they used a few) of 2000 Soviet ultra modern and ultra heavy tanks which were supposedely ready to invade Germany?

    Where all those tanks gone, I wonder? Were it flying tanks? LOL

    No, the answer is simply, I'm not going to demand you to answer it as you can't: the Soviet ultra-modern and ultra-heavy tanks COULDN'T MOVE. It were just rusty pieces of iron :-)

    Quite as the Soviet Army (Nazi knew any invasion was not possible):



    Also, I'd like you read how Germans treated Ukrainians:

    Koch, as a member of the superior German Herrenvolk master race, started a reign of terror and oppression in Ukraine. Koch often said that the Ukrainian people were inferior to the Germans, that Ukrainians were half-monkeys, and that Ukrainians "must be handled with the whip like the negroes." He once said that "no German soldiers would die for these niggers [Ukrainians]."

    During the first year of the war Koch encouraged the use of whips on Ukrainians. "In November 1942 about twenty Ukrainians were whipped by the police because they sabotaged important bridge construction across the Dnieper. I knew nothing of this measure. Had I known ... I probably would have had these Ukrainians shot for sabotage." - Erich Koch, March 13, 1943 (Dallin p. 157). On April 18, 1942 Koch finally banned the use of the whip on Ukrainians, Koch's brutality towards Ukrainians was approved by Hitler, Goering, Bormann, Sauckel and Himmler. However Rosenberg and Goebbels did not approve of his methods. Although Rosenberg was the superior of Koch he was too weak to control Koch and Rosenberg's pro-Ukrainian plans were shelved very early in the war.

    Hitler was intent on destroying education and culture in Ukraine. During a visit to Ukraine in 1942 Hitler said Ukrainians "should be given only the crudest kind of education necessary for communication between them and their German masters." Erich Koch ordered: "I expect the General Commissars to close all schools and colleges with students over 15 years of age and send all teachers and students, irrespective of sex, in a body to Germany for work.... I require that no school except four-grade elementary schools should function." All schools above grade four were closed in January 1942 and also all universities were closed as well.

    Like Bormann and Goering, SS leader Heinrich Himmler said that "the entire Ukrainian intelligentsia must be decimated." (Dallin, p. 127).

    Reichskommissar Erich Koch, a cruel and vicious German who called himself "a brutal dog," once said "If I find a Ukrainian who is worthy of sitting at the same table with me, I must have him shot." He condemned Kiev to a slow death by famine and made his "capital" Rivne which was a small town of 40,000 about 200 miles west of Kiev.

  2. #32
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    Post AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    What question?

    You can disprove presented sources?
    Regarding Leningrad:
    I can disprove nothing. To disprove things, i'd need access to the claimed original documents.
    All i can do is, to read about claimed facts and check which ones sound more logical.
    As i clearly said, i can't proove or know if these 'documents' from the Anti-Wehrmachtausstellung are real or fakes, but i can use logic, if they could be authentic or if certain logical aspects stand against it.


    Simple. Russians thought that Germans came to liberate them from Jewish Communists. Instead Germans started to mass murder Slavs. Russians started to fight back and ended the war in Berlin. Simple.
    That's not an explanation, how it came, that it was even possible to make 3 millions soldiers become pows.
    And there is only one single situation, that such military masses on an strategic level can be encircled and destroyed. You guess right what that is.

    Can you prove that Germans WANTED but WERE UNABLE to feed their POWs?
    No.
    But as they were hardly able to feed the own soldiers, it makes some sense that they weren't, doesn't it?
    The mortality rate of Russians was 75%, the mortality rate of Americans and Brits and the French - 1%.
    So you equal the situation in the west with the one in Russia.
    Why can you do that?
    It are completely different situations: in the west, there never were mass-surrenders of millions of men. Never such masses of men were forced to live together, as it was unfortunately necessary in the east.
    Ever seen The Hart's war? Being in one camp, American POWs were well fed, while Russians were starving...
    No, but maybe they decided instead that both recieve to less, to feed those who fought knightingly, to feed better.
    Correct? No. Understandable? Yes.
    Please, don't post BS by Victor REZUN, a UKRAINIAN defector from GRU, ever again, ok?

    His fantasies were disproven long time ago, if any serious person believed in them from the beginning.
    This is very interesting, because my knowledge is, that the archives are partially open only since 1990 and Suworow's work is based on it. So it's not possible, that is was 'proven wrong long time ago'.
    In fact, the oposite is the case: more and more publications are dealing with the myth of the peaceful, unprepared SU and are supporting Suworow's facts, while it has become quite silent around those, repeating the official SU history.

    Ok, but I'll answer ALL your question (of course I can refute your, or rather Rezun's funy claims) if you'll answer ONE mine: why Germans, who were so desperate to get as much tanks as possible (and used French, Czech and Polish tanks) did not used ANY (ok, maybe they used a few) of 2000 Soviet ultra modern and ultra heavy tanks which were supposedely ready to invade Germany?

    Where all those tanks gone, I wonder? Were it flying tanks? LOL

    No, the answer is simply, I'm not going to demand you to answer it as you can't: the Soviet ultra-modern and ultra-heavy tanks COULDN'T MOVE. It were just rusty pieces of iron :-)
    Then you obviously don't know the german films and pictures from the huge encriclement battles at the beginning of Barbarossa?
    There even do fantastic color-films exist showing Me109 flying over the provisional field-airfields close to the german border and strafing the exploding soviet planes, because they were already fully fueled.
    Field airfileds close to the border! Thsi fact alone prooves the Red Army was preparing for an attack.
    The german newspapers and Wochenschau were full of details about the huge battles.
    These battles were the reason, why Hitler and the OKW thought, the war in the east was already won, not becasue they were crazy or megalomanic.
    No serious historian operates with crazy, megalomanic, evil leaders, but asks for rational reasons and causes to understand what and why things happened.

    And i don't know, what you mean, with 'why didn't Germans use the soviet tanks?' First they had to fight against them and knock them out.
    Afterwards some of them could be used.
    And ofcourse were used!
    But the problem of captured tanks is, that you need several tanks for one, because of the repair-parts, the ammunition is of a problem, and the repair-companies with their logistics cannot just stop, dismantle several hundred tanks, while the Panzers have to advance.

    It is one of Suworow's merits, to have destroyed the 60 year old lie from the unprepared SU, but to have shown the world the reality of world's biggest and best equipped army built to conquer Europe for communistic world revolution.

    There is another one, quite convincing and logical fact: if the official version from the communists and plutocrats were true (btw, why should it be true?), why did Hitler attack an enemy with all his forces hidden in the endless areas of Russia, with forces not equipped for the next winter, although Hitler was better informed about European history, than any of the other politicians?

    Ofcourse, there is only one logical explanation that makes sense.
    The news about increasing soviet troops concentrations on the german-russian border, forced him to decide, either to wait (although there was no reason for such huge concentrations) what will happen and until the Red Army is really rolling, with all the possible consequences, or to react as fast as possible and destroy the masses as long as they can be destroyed in their preparation areas with all gigantic strategic options, afterwards.

    Strangely the quoted text stops here. I'll try to continue with my reply in another post.

    Continued: i can't quote that text about Koch and the treatment of the Slavs, but we don't have much dissence here: yes, Koch was a primitive man and a criminal.

    The tragedy is, that because of the bestiality the war was led from the Red Army from the first day(!) on, long before any german war crimes (do you know, what happened?), the political forces with their stupid Übermenschenbehaviour gained weight.
    Hitler was anyway a direct, honest character, that couldn't stand the tortures of regular german soldiers by partisans or regular troops.
    Hitler, confronted with a way of 'fighting' he never expected in that bestiality, was heavily founded and acted as the typical furor teutonicus in honest fury: if they want it that way, then they can have it.
    That he followed with that behaviour directly what was intended, to make the germans lose support of the once liberated nations and turn them with reprisals into occupants, he didn't recognize.

    But this thread is about the only REAL Holocaust, so we should return to that topic.
    Last edited by GFM Schörner; Saturday, September 4th, 2004 at 12:28 AM.

  3. #33
    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Quote Originally Posted by GFM Schörner
    Regarding Leningrad:
    I can disprove nothing.
    I got you: you can't disprove...

    How's about the General Plan OST?

    That's not an explanation, how it came, that it was even possible to make 3 millions soldiers become pows.
    Explaine how 11 million German soldiers became POWs and I'll answer your question.

    And there is only one single situation, that such military masses on an strategic level can be encircled and destroyed. You guess right what that is.
    I've already asked you to drop the Rezun BS.

    I bet you imagine you "know the truth". LOL

    You spend your money on the military fiction book

    Rezun/Goebbels' "arguments" are laughable.

    No.
    But as they were hardly able to feed the own soldiers, it makes some sense that they weren't, doesn't it?
    Just take a look at fat faces of the Wehrmacht soldiers.

    So you equal the situation in the west with the one in Russia.
    Why can you do that?
    It are completely different situations: in the west, there never were mass-surrenders of millions of men. Never such masses of men were forced to live together, as it was unfortunately necessary in the east.
    How's about Poles? The French?

    Russia had huge food supplies, which Germansstarted to move to the Reich as soon as they got them,instead of feeding starving Russian soldiers.

    Ha, I bet you imagine that there were no food in the SU at all.

    No, but maybe they decided instead that both recieve to less, to feed those who fought knightingly, to feed better.
    Correct? No. Understandable? Yes.
    Amazing...

    This is very interesting, because my knowledge is, that the archives are partially open only since 1990 and Suworow's work is based on it. So it's not possible, that is was 'proven wrong long time ago'.
    It was proven false by many authors within the last decade. Ok?

    In fact, the oposite is the case: more and more publications are dealing with the myth of the peaceful, unprepared SU and are supporting Suworow's facts, while it has become quite silent around those, repeating the official SU history.
    You're dreaming.


    Then you obviously don't know the german films and pictures from the huge encriclement battles at the beginning of Barbarossa?
    There even do fantastic color-films exist showing Me109 flying over the provisional field-airfields close to the german border and strafing the exploding soviet planes, because they were already fully fueled.
    Field airfileds close to the border! Thsi fact alone prooves the Red Army was preparing for an attack.
    Again the Rezun BS.

    There is nothing starnge that the army is defending the borders of the country. Poles and the French also had their regiments deployed along borders.

    The german newspapers and Wochenschau were full of details about the huge battles.
    BS

    And i don't know, what you mean, with 'why didn't Germans use the soviet tanks?' First they had to fight against them and knock them out.
    That's very funy, because I've read memoirs of German Panzer generals, and they're writing that they encountered first single Soviet tanks MONTHS after the beginning of the invasion.


    Afterwards some of them could be used.
    And ofcourse were used!
    But very, VERY little was used, while Germans used even old pathetic French and Czech models... why did not they want to use hundreds and hundreds of modern heavy tanks which the Red Army had, as Rezun claims? LOL

    But the problem of captured tanks is, that you need several tanks for one, because of the repair-parts, the ammunition is of a problem, and the repair-companies with their logistics cannot just stop, dismantle several hundred tanks, while the Panzers have to advance.
    It did not stop Germans to use several T-34... where were the rest?


    It is one of Suworow's merits, to have destroyed the 60 year old lie from the unprepared SU, but to have shown the world the reality of world's biggest and best equipped army.
    You're dreaming. That's what Germans thought about the Red Army:

    http://img89.exs.cx/img89/5513/zaloga_text.jpg

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    Senior Member Darius's Avatar
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    Post Re: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    What about the millions of russians that the Same Josiph Stalin Killed, in the Gulags. Wars are wars and both sides do attrocities, therew can be no measurements of atrocities in wars, Wars are wars and mass killing on a mass frontal war might have been a must in certain circumstances. From Both sides.

    "Among the ever increasing threat, against the bearers of civilisation. There are no Celts, there are no Nordids, there are no Latins, There are just Europeans!"

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    Account Inactive Ross's Avatar
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    Post Re: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    What about the millions of russians that the Same Josiph Stalin Killed, in the Gulags. Wars are wars and both sides do attrocities, therew can be no measurements of atrocities in wars, Wars are wars and mass killing on a mass frontal war might have been a must in certain circumstances. From Both sides.
    It was only 600 000... 600 000 of Lenin's Jewish and Latvian bloody bolsheviks

    Good riddance and hail Stalin!
    Last edited by Ross; Saturday, September 4th, 2004 at 12:15 AM.

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    Post Re: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)


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    Post AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross
    I got you: you can't disprove...
    You don't know the difference between a prove and an argument?
    Explaine how 11 million German soldiers became POWs and I'll answer your question.
    How long took it?
    I've already asked you to drop the Rezun BS.
    Great fact.
    You spend your money on the military fiction book
    Not funny, just plain dumb.
    Rezun/Goebbels' "arguments" are laughable.
    What's that? Fact, argument, prove?
    Just take a look at fat faces of the Wehrmacht soldiers.
    Rossy, what is so hard to understand: the soldiers come first. Why should they look hungry?
    How's about Poles? The French?
    You have not much knowledge about warfare in WWII, do you?
    Otherwise you wouldn't compare apples and pears.
    I'll try to explain:
    1. In France the war lasted 6 weeks. In Poland 4 weeks. Against the SU, it continued.
    2. France and Poland had good infrastructure. SU not. -> big transport problems.
    3. most supply is transported via railway -> big problem becasue of the different track-width.
    4. The distances are essential. Take a look at a map, if you don't know.
    5. With the distances, the transport time increases.
    6. The whole scale was way bigger but the support possibilities way worse.
    7. France and Poland had together not that many soldiers under weapons, as russian pows were made within weeks. Seems you have no imagination, what 3 million men need of supply.
    Russia had huge food supplies, which Germansstarted to move to the Reich as soon as they got them,instead of feeding starving Russian soldiers.
    You have to make yourself a bit familiar with the logistical problems a war creates. It was not the problem to have enough to eat available. The problem is to bring it where it is needed, without interrupting war-necessary goods.

    It was proven false by many authors within the last decade. Ok?
    Can you name some authors and how they proved Suworows facts wrong?
    You're dreaming.

    Again the Rezun BS.

    There is nothing starnge that the army is defending the borders of the country. Poles and the French also had their regiments deployed along borders
    Finally an argument.
    But wrong.
    Why don't you make yourself familiar with WWII warfare?

    Borders are protected, not defended in a strategic scale.
    I'll try to explain:
    a defense of a country is always built up into the depth. Concentrated masses are absolutely useless. Instead of placing a battailon on open ground, just behind the border, it will be placed - in case of defense - in a well fitting, easy to defend, or tactically important area. No one places whole divisions in woods or open ground.
    The mass of fighters has to be stationed that far behind the border, that they can intercept, but are not in danger of enemy ground forces.
    Artillery has detailed fire plans and maps of the own country.

    To defend the SU, there had not been 4 million solders necessary, but only maybe 20 divisions and like usual, the rest as strategic reserves stationed somewhere within the country, in the barracks.

    But what i don't understand, too: if the SU was in no way preparing for a war, why where there 4 million soldiers under weapons?
    In case of war, people are called to the weapons. But in peace millions of soldiers?
    BS
    Another good fact?
    That's very funy, because I've read memoirs of German Panzer generals, and they're writing that they encountered first single Soviet tanks MONTHS after the beginning of the invasion.
    What Panzer General was that? Was he known in the Wehrmacht?
    To be honest: although i can't imagine it, if you provide the name, i'll read his memoirs but this is possible.

    Probably you don't know because of your lack of knowledge of warfare, so i want to remember you of german Blitzkrieg-tactics: mechanized units, guided by the panzers, bdeeply penetrate into enemy's territory, not caring about supply, to get behind enemy's lines, to cut of his upplys, deny retreat and once infantry-divisions closed the pocket, destroy the enemy forces.

    It's easy to understand, that because of the huge operating areas, some days no enemy is seen or that a division operates in an area without enemy tanks.

    But anyway, i'm interested to read that memoirs.
    But very, VERY little was used, while Germans used even old pathetic French and Czech models...
    The Czech and french tanks were not that bad and better than most of the german light tanks.
    Why did not they want to use hundreds and hundreds of modern heavy tanks which the Red Army had, as Rezun claims? LOL
    You laugh because of incompetence.
    I already explained the difficulties using captured tanks. They can be used only in small amounts on a tactical scale, not on strategic level, because of the repair, supply and ammo-thing.
    That's different in the case of the Czech and French tanks.
    There were ammo reserves available.
    A tank without ammo is useless.
    What do you think? Oh, look, here's a T34. Let's paint the Balkenkreuz on it and let's forget our tanks with ammo and fuel reserves and the whole supply logistics and use it until we run out of ammo or fuel.

    btw: the russian tanks needed Diesel. German ones gasoline.

    How useful is a tank without fuel?
    Last edited by GFM Schörner; Saturday, September 4th, 2004 at 02:14 AM.

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    Post Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    You have to make yourself a bit familiar with the logistical problems a war creates. It was not the problem to have enough to eat available. The problem is to bring it where it is needed, without interrupting war-necessary goods.
    Do you have ANY evidence that Germans were eager to feed their POWs but were unable to do it? ANYTHING? A letter? An order? Memoirs? ANYTHING?

    No? Of course...

    What Panzer General was that? Was he known in the Wehrmacht?
    One of the many authors debunking inane BS written by Rezun is Y. Veremeev

    http://armor.kiev.ua/army/hist/shuler.shtml

    Veremeev mentions GOTH... according to GOTH there wasn't any noticable resistance from Soviet tank regiments in the beginning of the war

    another German general - GUDERIAN wrote: "In the East Russians for a long time had VERY LITTLE TANKS"

    another German general Gunther Blumentritt wrote that first T-34 tanks were spotted only in October of 1941 at Vyazma

    I'm quite reluctant to translate those countless pages refuting funny BS written by an Ukrainian defector Rezun...

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    Post Re: AW: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    EYTYXEITE!
    Dear Njoerd Eriksson, grasping the opportunity from what you mentioned above, I would like to ask if the use of the term "Jew" in order to indicate race is offensive.
    I already used it in some previous posts of mine, without any offensive will.
    Kindest Regards!

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    Post Re: The REAL Holocaust (*WARNING*: Disturbing Images)

    Speaking of the REAL Holocaust, Everyone (except the Armenians) has apparently forgotten or chooses to ignore the Armenian Holocaust. Starting in 1921, the Turkish government started systematically exterminating the Armenians in the remnants of the old Ottoman Empire.
    According to reliable studies done afterward, 1,300,000 Armenians were slaughtered by the Turks. The reason (as in Hitler's Holocaust against the Jews) was envy and resentment of the success and influence of the industrious Armenians compared to the indolent Ottoman Turks.
    Unfortunately for them, the Armenians didn't have the PR machine that the Jews did and we hear nothing about this genocidal outrage.

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