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Thread: Why Are German-Americans Not Considered "Volksdeutsche"? / German-Americans and Their Lack of Interest in Their Roots

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger
    Well, not really I would say, at least for someone outside, like me , America is a culturally exception to the rest of the Anglo-Saxon world, you are different to Australians, New Zeelander, British, etc. but the mentioned are again pretty homogenous.
    Of course still somehow Anglo-Saxon, but nevertheless different.
    Yeah. America has had more immigration and more diversity in immigration. We are in a League of our own.

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    AW: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumelicus
    That's all that matters, not where you were born or where your mother's parents came from. German nationality is traditionally from the paternal line, from the blood of your father.
    Is that the assumed legal status quo you're giving here or a folkicist-racialist "should be" conception by you?

    Regarding the current legal situation of the FRG: One has already German citizenship by birth through one's mother's German citizenship since 1975. (Apart from that, even if one's father was a born German citizen, he could lose his German citizenship automatically through application of another citizenship.)

    Regarding how it should be: Taking only a look at the father's blood is certainly not enough, since for, e. g., a Mulatto as result of German-Negrid miscegenation it makes no difference from which side the German or Negrid part, respectively, comes. (The Nuremberg Laws or generally the racial policy of the Third Reich rightly didn't make any difference between non-acceptable foreign blood coming from paternal or maternal side.)
    Man ſei Held oder Heiliger. In der Mitte liegt nicht die Weisheit, ſondern die Alltäglichkeit.

    SPENGLER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    That is to say all other white ethnicities have learned to assimilate and learn the to become part of the "mainstream" Anglo-Saxon culture.


    This is true for earlier generations of immigrants, not so much for recent ones. For example, when my mom comes to visit me, we exclusively speak German: going shopping, in restaurants, etc. I wouldn't even think about Anglicizing my name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordgau
    Is that the assumed legal status quo you're giving here or a folkicist-racialist "should be" conception by you?


    It was my understanding based on an earlier version (I think pre-1914 even) of the Staatsangehőrigkeitgesetz prior to the FRG. In other words, this is my understanding, if the nationalists were to take power, of how it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordgau
    Regarding the current legal situation of the FRG: One has already German citizenship by birth through one's mother's German citizenship since 1975.


    My only question to you about the current nationality law of the FRG is how much of it you would allow to remain. For example, if a German were to naturalize as an American and then marry a German wife, and the son were to inherit German citizenship from the mother, would you still consider the son to be a German?

    I mean German in the sense of what used to be called "Reichsdeutsch". Not some Turk or half-black that the FRG pretends is a German. I agree with this aspect of what you’re saying regarding the Nuremburg Laws.

    To clarify what I mean, IIRC there was a time in the FRG where marrying a foreigner caused a German woman to lose her citizenship. Nevermind that the son would never be German.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jäger
    Sorry, I don't get it, could you please elaborate. I mean what have the wars to do with this?
    Certainly. In America, nobody put a gun to your head and told you to kill other Germans. There were plenty of German-Americans who were conscientious objectors and refused to fight. If a person wasn't one of these, then how do they reconcile the war? That's what I want to know.

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumelicus
    Certainly. In America, nobody put a gun to your head and told you to kill other Germans. There were plenty of German-Americans who were conscientious objectors and refused to fight. If a person wasn't one of these, then how do they reconcile the war? That's what I want to know.
    My family is almost all English rather than German, but both of my grandfathers were involved in the war effort. One grandfather fought in the Navy in the Pacific. The other trained officers in San Diego to go to the Pacific theater. Neither has ever said anything bad about the Germans, despite having lots of bad things to say about the Japanese. They felt that we were in the war to protect the United States from Japanese invasion, and that the fighting in Europe was a very bad distraction from that effort. My father says my grandpa who stayed at home used to weep for hours when he heard about the bombing of German towns on the radio — he had lived in Germany for three years before the war, and it horrified him to think of the people he loved being killed in such numbers and so indiscriminantly.

    I think an American German who fought in WWII against the Japanese is in no way guilty of any kind of treason.

    Another thing to consider is that there might have been American Germans fighting in the war against the NSDAP government, but believing they were fighting for the good of the German nation. If I'm not mistaken, there was a Widerstand in Germany at the time. Presumably they too were fighting against the German government, and I imagine they even killed their fellow Germans at times. But they probably also honestly believed they were fighting for the good of the German nation. I don't think it would be appropriate to call such a person a traitor against the nation. If there were American Germans also fighting against the NSDAP but feeling that they were doing it for the good of the nation, then they would have been just other participants in the Widerstand.

    Of course, there might have been some who just didn't even care that they were fighting Germans, or who even joined in the propaganda ethnic slurs against the Germans, and not just to fit in but really believing it. I think you're probably right that they were no longer ethnically German but rather something else. I'm not really sure what they would count as ethnically, but I'd say they wouldn't have been German.

    A country is a big group, and a person can support a country without supporting all of it. In fact, very few people if any support everything a country produces. I am proud to be a United States' citizen, but I abhor a great deal of the actions of our government and a lot of the hedomacy (thanks, Agrippa! ) of our populace. But that doesn't mean I hate my country. The same could be true of ethnic Germans who are US citizens — they might love the country in which they are citizens even while hating some of its policies. And they can love the other people of their ethnicity even while hating the governments over them.

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    My family is almost all English rather than German, but both of my grandfathers were involved in the war effort. One grandfather fought in the Navy in the Pacific.


    Well, my question was more for Americans of predominantly German ancestry whose German ancestors were in the USA during the war. It isn’t necessary for others to speak for them.

    I think an American German who fought in WWII against the Japanese is in no way guilty of any kind of treason.


    IIRC, one didn’t volunteer for the Pacific- they were assigned. I remember one of my friends telling me that if the Americans had drafted me, I would probably have been sent to the Pacific. I think an internment camp would have been much more likely.

    Another thing to consider is that there might have been American Germans fighting in the war against the NSDAP government, but believing they were fighting for the good of the German nation.


    A large portion of the “political émigrés” from Germany were probably Jews.

    If I'm not mistaken, there was a Widerstand in Germany at the time. Presumably they too were fighting against the German government, and I imagine they even killed their fellow Germans at times.


    IIRC, only accidentally. I think without exception all of the resistance plots were assassinations aimed against Hitler himself. That’s very different than taking up arms and helping foreign powers destroy Germany. In fact, the Allies refused to negotiate separate peace terms with German resistance groups. It should have been clear to them what the Allies intended.


    I don't think it would be appropriate to call such a person a traitor against the nation. If there were American Germans also fighting against the NSDAP but feeling that they were doing it for the good of the nation, then they would have been just other participants in the Widerstand.
    Yes. It would.

    I don’t insist that John Walker Lindh or Jose Padilla were fighting to liberate America against Zionist-Capitalist tyranny or whatever, please don’t suggest that these people were fighting for Germany under American arms. It’s obscene. Both of my grandfathers fought for Germany in the war- one in the army against the Soviets and the other was an anti-aircraft gunner in Lower Saxony. Both of them were POWs at one time. I don’t equate their sacrifice at any time with what these traitors did in order to ingratiate themselves with their new Anglo-American bosses. [/FONT]

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumelicus

    Well, my question was more for Americans of predominantly German ancestry whose German ancestors were in the USA during the war. It isn’t necessary for others to speak for them.



    IIRC, one didn’t volunteer for the Pacific- they were assigned. I remember one of my friends telling me that if the Americans had drafted me, I would probably have been sent to the Pacific. I think an internment camp would have been much more likely.



    A large portion of the “political émigrés” from Germany were probably Jews.



    IIRC, only accidentally. I think without exception all of the resistance plots were assassinations aimed against Hitler himself. That’s very different than taking up arms and helping foreign powers destroy Germany. In fact, the Allies refused to negotiate separate peace terms with German resistance groups. It should have been clear to them what the Allies intended.




    Yes. It would.

    I don’t insist that John Walker Lindh or Jose Padilla were fighting to liberate America against Zionist-Capitalist tyranny or whatever, please don’t suggest that these people were fighting for Germany under American arms. It’s obscene. Both of my grandfathers fought for Germany in the war- one in the army against the Soviets and the other was an anti-aircraft gunner in Lower Saxony. Both of them were POWs at one time. I don’t equate their sacrifice at any time with what these traitors did in order to ingratiate themselves with their new Anglo-American bosses. [/FONT]
    My great grandfather was German however he fought for America because he identified more with America than Germany.

    Besides just because someone has certain blood doesn't mean they have to share the same ideals. Just because my great grand father was German doesn't mean he had an obligation to Heil Hitler.

    Germany wanted peace only when it was close to defeat. Indeed towards the end even Hitler's generals wanted him dead because they knew he was detrimental to the German cause.

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern_Paladin
    Besides just because someone has certain blood doesn't mean they have to share the same ideals. Just because my great grand father was German doesn't mean he had an obligation to Heil Hitler.
    That is the main argument in this thread! Just because you are an american of german descent doesn't mean you should call yourself german if you don't feel/live german!
    "Nothing is more disgusting than the majority: because it consists of a few powerful predecessors, of rogues who adapt themselves, of weak who assimilate themselves, and the masses who imitate without knowing at all what they want." (Johann Wolfgang Goethe)

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    AW: Re: AW: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumelicus

    It was my understanding based on an earlier version (I think pre-1914 even) of the Staatsangehőrigkeitgesetz prior to the FRG. In other words, this is my understanding, if the nationalists were to take power, of how it would be.

    My only question to you about the current nationality law of the FRG is how much of it you would allow to remain.
    German citizenship is based on the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz from 1913, with these or that alterations, amendments and dilutions until today (e. g. its "reformation" in 2000). Multiculturalists use to diffame it as "blood law" or "racist" citizenship concept, but basically the "racist" component is nothing but the fact that you are German or Reich citizen by birth through German parentage--as it is also the case in the countries of the "western" citizenship concept, since you are also U.S. American if born in a foreign country by American parents.

    The German citizenship law also does not assign citizenship to ethnic Germans in other countries, not to speak of persons just having ethnic German ancestry. Regarding expelled or surpressed ethnic Germans minorities in foreign countries and the right of expelled ethnic Germans to get German citizenship, there were special regulations for these questions after World war II.

    There is traditionally indeed not the ius soli automatism of getting German citizenship through birth in Germany if you're a foreign national, as it in the U.S.A. But it was already before the strong dilution of that in 2000 possible for thousands of immigrants to get German citizenship, and also did Jews, and also could individuals from other foreign races, have German citizenship before the National Socialist era..

    So much on the alledgedly "racist" traditional German citizenship law.

    Of course after a national revolution it will stay the "basis", since even with its dilutions and the naturalisation of some millions foreigners the far majority of German citizens indeed are Germans, but it needs the racialist-folkicist re-conceptualisation (à la Third Reich) and with this expecially the declaration of invalidity of mass naturalisation of immigrants through the FRG. (And of course we also do not mind much that Austrians and others are technically "foreigners" for the FRG as a much as Turks are. That autochthonous Austrians will all automatically become German citizens after a reunification will be no great question.)


    For example, if a German were to naturalize as an American and then marry a German wife, and the son were to inherit German citizenship from the mother, would you still consider the son to be a German?
    Basically yes, but still with reservations. If he, maybe born and living in America, would have not at all any life connection with Germany, but with the full integration in American life and society and complete alienation from the German world given, with entrance in American civil or military service, and if he would finally even take position against Germany ... a national German government would surely be free to denaturalise such persons.

    I mean German in the sense of what used to be called "Reichsdeutsch". Not some Turk or half-black that the FRG pretends is a German. I agree with this aspect of what you’re saying regarding the Nuremburg Laws.
    Yes, okay; but, as already said, until the Nuremberg Laws "German" Jews, and in some individual cases other racial foreigners or half-breeds, had German citizenship; also "Reichsdeutsch" and the German citizenship law generally applied only to Germans within the Reich, but ethnic German minorities or even whole countries outside the Reich borders are of course German ...

    To clarify what I mean, IIRC there was a time in the FRG where marrying a foreigner caused a German woman to lose her citizenship. Nevermind that the son would never be German.
    That was automatically the case until 1949, and from 1949 until 1953 only if they didn't become stateless through that. Since 1953 the rule is completely away.--On the other side, from 1914 until 1953 (and less automatically until 1969) foreign women got German citizenship automatically when marrying a German (except for special measures and regulations during the Third Reich of course ). Needless to say that this is, when carried out arbitrarily, an intolerable practice from the racialist-völkisch standpoint. Almost a joke that the current FRG regulation is here more demanding than the older regulation.

    Here some comments from Wikipedia (not for everything the best reference source, I know, but for a brief overview ...) on special aspects of German citizenship until 2000, on that birth through one parent part thing in the first quote and on that gain/loss through marriage thing in the second quote:

    Eheliche Geburt

    Eheliche Kinder, die zwischen dem 1. Januar 1914 und dem 31. Dezember 1963 geboren wurden, erwarben die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit nur durch den deutschen Vater. Eheliche Kinder einer deutschen Mutter, die nach dem 1. Januar 1964 und vor dem 31. Dezember 1974 geboren wurden, erwarben die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit, wenn sie sonst staatenlos geworden wären. Eheliche Kinder, die seit dem 1. Januar 1975 geboren wurden, erwarben die Staatsangehörigkeit, wenn einer der beiden Elternteile deutsch war. Eheliche Kinder einer deutschen Mutter, die nach dem 1. April 1953 und vor dem 1. Januar 1975 geboren wurden und bereits eine Staatsangehörigkeit besaßen, hatten die Möglichkeit eine Erklärung abzugeben, dass sie die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit erhalten wollten. Diese Erklärungsfrist ist mit dem 31. Dezember 1977 abgelaufen.

    Grund für diese Regelung war, dass das Bundesverfassungsgericht am 21. Mai 1974 feststellte, dass die bis dahin gesetzlich vorgeschriebene Praxis, dass nur die Nationalität des Vaters maßgeblich ist (§ 4 Abs. 1 RuStAG) gegen das Gleichheitsgebot des Art. 3 des Grundgesetzes verstieß.
    Eheschließung

    Ausländische Frauen, die einen Deutschen geheiratet hatten, erwarben vom 1. Januar 1914 bis zum 31. März 1953 die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit automatisch. Zwischen dem 1. April 1953 und dem 23. August 1957 galten weitere besondere Vorschriften. Bei Eheschließung zwischen dem 24. August 1957 und dem 31. Dezember 1969 gab es die Möglichkeit bei der Eheschließung oder danach die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit durch Erklärung zu erwerben. Seit dem 1. Januar 1970 ist die Eheschließung kein automatischer Erwerbsgrund mehr. Ehegatten deutscher Staatsangehöriger können seither nur noch erleichtert eingebürgert werden.

    Deutsche Frauen, die vor dem 23. Mai 1949 einen Ausländer geheiratet haben, haben die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit auch bei dann eintretender Staatenlosigkeit verloren. Sie können wieder eingebürgert werden. Deutsche Frauen, die zwischen dem 23. Mai 1949 und dem 31. März 1953 einen Ausländer geheiratet haben, verloren die deutsche Staatsangehörigkeit nur dann, wenn sie dadurch nicht staatenlos wurden. Seit dem 1. April 1953 ist die Eheschließung mit einem Ausländer kein Verlusttatbestand mehr.
    (Source)

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Northern Paladin”
    Besides just because someone has certain blood doesn't mean they have to share the same ideals.


    If this claim of blood is supposed to mean anything, then yes it does. What would you say to a Mexican of very remote Anglo-American ancestry who only spoke Spanish and supported Mexican Revanchist territorial ambitions against the USA?

    (In other words, he believed that California, Texas, Nevada, Arizona, etc. should return to Mexico.)

    Just because my great grand father was German doesn't mean he had an obligation to Heil Hitler.


    If you want to engage in civil debate, address the issues but please don’t insult people.

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    Re: On "German-Americans"

    Quote Originally Posted by Thumelicus

    If this claim of blood is supposed to mean anything, then yes it does. What would you say to a Mexican of very remote Anglo-American ancestry who only spoke Spanish and supported Mexican Revanchist territorial ambitions against the USA?

    (In other words, he believed that California, Texas, Nevada, Arizona, etc. should return to Mexico.)



    If you want to engage in civil debate, address the issues but please don’t insult people.
    I would say that a person is what he identifies with. The man is not in fact Anglo-Saxon because he has no outward or inward signs of being such. Remote heritage is exactly that far removed.

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