Islam Versus Red Wine ! and Modern Medicine

[Ogmios]

In the fundamentalist Islamic world alcohol is banned. In dealing with chronic obesity, excess Cholesterol (chemically an an Alcohol) is a major problem for the morbidly obese sector of the Saudi population whose wealth has lead to an excess intake of fatty foods - being fat means generating an alcohol or alkanol(Cholesterol) that can result in severe penalties potentially in the Kingdom

Today a major moral conflict arose with a Doctor of Medicine (Islamic) who refused to mention the "W" word! that is part of the famous cholesterol-busting 'Meditterranean diet'!. The "W" in this case is Wine. Wine is of course an alcohol, and the Tannins in red wine help to promote the oxidationof cholesterol to ketones, then to aldehydes.....The Ethanol in Wine may also act as a solvent to long-chain waxy alkanols that help preventCholesterol settling out andcloggingyourarteries. Irrespective of the Science, it is generallyaccepted thatthe 'Meditterranean diet' leads to an healthy heart.

Are Islamic doctors in breach of the Hippocratic Oath*1 ? by refusing to recommend a potentially life-saving course of action, drinking a moderate two or three glasses of red wine a day, to save their Muslim patients? .

(Privately my fellowman of medicine admitted that he ought to have recommended drinking red wine wine to many of his patients who are suffering from obesity-related issue, but didnt want to face a jail sentence if an Islamic patient compalined about the promotion of alcohol in their country......

An interesting moral dilemna?. Cultural constraints (the 'chemicalism' and anti-alcohol constraint of Islam preventing an honest man of medicine from potentially saving a patients life.).

Do any forum subscribers face similar constraints in dealing with 'western' patients where prohibition is practiced?.

Regards


Hippocratic Oath>
*1 Written in antiquity, the principles of the HippocraticOath are held sacred by doctors to this day: treat the sick to the best of one's ability, preserve patient privacy, teach the secrets of medicine to the next generation, and so on. "The Oath of Hippocrates," holds the American Medical Association's Code of Medical Ethics (1996 edition), "has remained in Western civilization as an expression of ideal conduct for the physician."

[Parzifal_]

I work in medicine. Alcohol kills a lot more people than it helps. Sure it helps prevent atherosclerosis in moderation but there are many millions more people who are victims of the other sequelae of alcohol intake such as alcoholism, spousal abuse, child abuse, road accidents, alcoholic hepatitis, pancreatitis etc. etc. The cost-benefit analysis to Islam was pretty clear - it costs a society a lot more than it benefits a society. People should be free but out of every 1000000 people how many are thinkers who understand moderation? IQ genetics reveals that the thinking man forms only 4-7% of any population. The majority therefore really do not understand the mechanics of chemical dependancy especially without a medical background. lastly a good diet, exercise and avoiding smoking etc is more than anyone needs to avoid coronary artery disease. Even if a patient of mine had a familial hypercholesterolemia I would treat him with a class of lipid lowering agents and statins before I suggest taking alcohol. Sorry for bursting your bubble.

[Ogmios]

I will drink to that respected advice, . Cheers.

[Scoob]

I work in medicine. Alcohol kills a lot more people than it helps. Sure it helps prevent atherosclerosis in moderation but there are many millions more people who are victims of the other sequelae of alcohol intake such as alcoholism, spousal abuse, child abuse, road accidents, alcoholic hepatitis, pancreatitis etc. etc. The cost-benefit analysis to Islam was pretty clear - it costs a society a lot more than it benefits a society. People should be free but out of every 1000000 people how many are thinkers who understand moderation? IQ genetics reveals that the thinking man forms only 4-7% of any population. The majority therefore really do not understand the mechanics of chemical dependancy especially without a medical background. lastly a good diet, exercise and avoiding smoking etc is more than anyone needs to avoid coronary artery disease. Even if a patient of mine had a familial hypercholesterolemia I would treat him with a class of lipid lowering agents and statins before I suggest taking alcohol. Sorry for bursting your bubble.

I think some of these strong moral prohibitions in the Middle Eastern civilizations against display of the female body in public, drinking, etc, are a reaction to the emotional intensity impulsiveness of the people living in these civilizations. Middle Eastern people, including many Southern Europeans, get inflamed with passion much more easily than Northern European people - who walk around nude at beaches without lots of rapes or other things. It's not just different levels of mental control, it's different levels of emotional intensity and reactiveness inherent in these races, which has been observed well enough.

And Doc, you're behind the times. The latest "Food Pyramid" issued by the FDA of the USA recommends 1-2 servings of alcohol (not quite clear how much that is, maybe 1-2 beers for an adult man) per day as part of a healthy diet.

My understanding is that alcoholics have a chemical problem where their bodies don't process alcohol properly. Their whole experience of drinking is vastly different from that of a normal human, who gets drunk, loses inhibitions, and then sobers up. Many responsible people are able to feel their limit, and stop drinking at that point.

That puritanism, no matter how it's justified (people have tried using various religions, pseudoscience, and many other things), is bunk. Life is full of risks and responsibilities. The ancient Greeks considered wine a gift from the gods.

[Parzifal_]

My understanding is that alcoholics have a chemical problem where their bodies don't process alcohol properly. Their whole experience of drinking is vastly different from that of a normal human, who gets drunk, loses inhibitions, and then sobers up. Many responsible people are able to feel their limit, and stop drinking at that point.

People are free to do as they please. I did not defend Islam just offered an explanation. Yes many people can regulate their intake safely but many cannot. It is a risk that many people cannot safely navigate. Perhaps outside the medical field you may not appreciate how devastating the cost of alcohol abuse is to society. Like I said, in any given society there is only a small proportion of individuals who are bright enough to live the balanced life. Most are constantly challenged with moderation. Most do not begin as alcoholics but many get there. Part of it is genetic...but a whole other aspect is just plain dependancy that ANY individual may develop irrespective of other factors. Call it puritanism if you wish - thats fine. Don't go off though with those stereotypes...thats in poor taste.

About the FDA - please educate me. Recommending alcohol intake is not consistent with the "standard of care" protocol that I was taught in medical school. I just visited the FDA homepage and put in a search for "alcohol"+ "food" + "pyramid". Click on the first hit and read through the article. The pyramid links does not recommend alcohol and in fact the article states at the very end "If you drink alcoholic beverages do so in moderation. Alcoholic beverages supply calories but little or no nutrients. Drinking alcohol is also the cause of many health problems and accidents and can lead to addiction."

I agree with you fully however that WINE in MODERATION is of proven benefit. Last point -the clinical studies that were done where of French drinking habits with regard to wine. The mediterranean diet, on the other hand is beneficial for other reasons e.g. olive oil etc.

[Scoob]

People are free to do as they please. I did not defend Islam just offered an explanation. Yes many people can regulate their intake safely but many cannot. It is a risk that many people cannot safely navigate. Perhaps outside the medical field you may not appreciate how devastating the cost of alcohol abuse is to society. Like I said, in any given society there is only a small proportion of individuals who are bright enough to live the balanced life. Most are constantly challenged with moderation. Most do not begin as alcoholics but many get there. Part of it is genetic...but a whole other aspect is just plain dependancy that ANY individual may develop irrespective of other factors. Call it puritanism if you wish - thats fine. Don't go off though with those stereotypes...thats in poor taste.

About the FDA - please educate me. Recommending alcohol intake is not consistent with the "standard of care" protocol that I was taught in medical school. I just visited the FDA homepage and put in a search for "alcohol"+ "food" + "pyramid". Click on the first hit and read through the article. The pyramid links does not recommend alcohol and in fact the article states at the very end "If you drink alcoholic beverages do so in moderation. Alcoholic beverages supply calories but little or no nutrients. Drinking alcohol is also the cause of many health problems and accidents and can lead to addiction."

I agree with you fully however that WINE in MODERATION is of proven benefit. Last point -the clinical studies that were done where of French drinking habits with regard to wine. The mediterranean diet, on the other hand is beneficial for other reasons e.g. olive oil etc.

See the second pyramid shown here. The new food pyramid was introduced by the FDA in the last few years.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio.../pyramids.html

Bottom line to all this is that with freedom comes responsibility. The idea behind the US of A and other modern societies is that we value personal Liberty very highly, and try to make a society of educated, intelligent, sane people who are able to handle things like drinking alcohol responsibly. I submit the old idea that the ability to balance these things, responsibility and freedom, is what makes us truly human.

A "society" where things like alcohol are banned for the sake of the stupid and irresponsible isn't a society at all: it's a zoo full of wild animals and their zookeepers. If we have degenerated to that level, why bother? People that helpless are a menace to civilization.

[Ogmios]

Here in the Islamic world an Egyptian colleague has pitched in with supporting evidence in favour of Red Wine.

A patient of his who had been given jars of prescription tablets, lipid lowering agents, and other standard medicaments was advised to stop taking the pills and try a moderate couple of glasses of red wine a day....".

The patient, a pious Muslim who felt compelled to put his health above an early place in Paradise, did switch to the recommended intake of a generous couple of glasses of Bordeaux and Mouton cadet each day ; his symptoms have cleared up and he no longer 'rattles when he walks' as a result of taking the Doctors tablets...


The medical benefits of moderate alcohol intake are well known and even in conservative areas such as the Muslim world, the benefits of the Vine are slowly being accepted. Long may it continue...........

[torrent]

Here in the Islamic world an Egyptian colleague has pitched in with supporting evidence in favour of Red Wine.

A patient of his who had been given jars of prescription tablets, lipid lowering agents, and other standard medicaments was advised to stop taking the pills and try a moderate couple of glasses of red wine a day....".

The patient, a pious Muslim who felt compelled to put his health above an early place in Paradise, did switch to the recommended intake of a generous couple of glasses of Bordeaux and Mouton cadet each day ; his symptoms have cleared up and he no longer 'rattles when he walks' as a result of taking the Doctors tablets...


The medical benefits of moderate alcohol intake are well known and even in conservative areas such as the Muslim world, the benefits of the Vine are slowly being accepted. Long may it continue...........

http://www.ub40-dep.com/singlesredred.php
yes red wine is found to be good to the broken heart too. * so we may start a thread like Islam and broken heart? they say Islam is good for a broken heart. next we would be discussing which religion is good for colesterol? for example which religion is good for claudicatio intermittans? does heng peui lower the blood glucose levels? is heathen good for osteoartritis.

for example we can make an announcement a recently discovered religion in the forests of yenisei is found to be good for superficiality in the disguise of intellectaulity. they say you have a totem and then after a rituel you own the features of that taboo. for your honor ogmo i would be sipping champagne before our holy month comes. btw what is this thread doing in the anthropology section? please move it to music and hyms section.
best regards

*Red, red wine
Go to my head
Make me forget that I
Still need her so

Red, red wine
It`s up to you
All I can do, I`ve done
But mem`ries won`t go
No, mem`ries won`t go

I`d have sworn
That with time
Thoughts of her
Would leave my head
I was wrong
And I find
Just one thing makes me forget

[Vojvoda]

[url]*Red, red wine
Go to my head
Make me forget that I
Still need her so

Red, red wine
It`s up to you
All I can do, I`ve done
But mem`ries won`t go
No, mem`ries won`t go

I`d have sworn
That with time
Thoughts of her
Would leave my head
I was wrong
And I find
Just one thing makes me forget

How true it is

[torrent]

How true it is

yes, Ali Campbell is rather cool.