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Thread: Atlas Shrugged [Rand]

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    Senior Member nicholas's Avatar
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    Atlas Shrugged [Rand]

    "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine".

    After reading John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged I am wondering what your views are on objectivism, i.e. using reason as a method of living.

    This book spoke to me the way few others have. I've heard some say ayn rand was nuts but her books speak to m mind and heart like few others have.

    If I choose to be an objectivist and use reason then I will have to change my life in drastic ways that are needed.

    Anyone here ever read Atlas Shrugged? What are your thoughts? opinions?

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Re: atlas shrugged

    Quote Originally Posted by nicholas
    "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine".

    After reading John Galt's speech in Atlas Shrugged I am wondering what your views are on objectivism, i.e. using reason as a method of living.
    Using reason to form one's ethics and being an Objectivist are two different things. Rand was severely erroneous about a few things.

    This book spoke to me the way few others have. I've heard some say ayn rand was nuts but her books speak to m mind and heart like few others have.

    If I choose to be an objectivist and use reason then I will have to change my life in drastic ways that are needed.

    Anyone here ever read Atlas Shrugged? What are your thoughts? opinions?
    I read it, on average, 3 times a year, and I've done so for the past three years. I own all of her fiction. She's a powerful writer, sure.

    Someone will doubtless soon enough scream 'She's a JEW!', which she is, ethnically, but I don't take that into account when I'm discussing philosophers (or those who pretend to be).

    Man is not an 'individual'. He is a... dividual agent. He is a member of his race, his civilization, his ethnoculture, his social class, his occupation, his family, his subculture/clique, etc. These various elements of his identity combine to form his own self-perception, his identity. Some, of course, rank higher than others. Ask yourself: who are you? A Randroid (I've taken to the anti-Objectivist slang used to refer to Objectivists) can answer 'me'. But that's tautological, and says nothing.

    Once you've defined yourself, or at least developed a functioning self-conception - then you are in a position to ask yourself: how can I live my life best? Which is in fact the question of ethiics.

    Screw Rand, read Aristotle if you want some serious philosophy. And Nietzsche, and Heidegger, and Foucault.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member nicholas's Avatar
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    Re: atlas shrugged

    What strikes me the most is how eloquently the position is stated that no one has any right to demand another persons sacrifice, nor be expected to sacrifice oneself for others.

    As far as belonging to a group...I've really never had that, and few times I did there was no loyalty to me yet loyalty to others was expected of me.

    One thing I am annoyed by in regards to both Rand and Neitzsche is that they seem to disregard the paranormal and supernatural which in my mind is only that in nature which we as humans do not understand.

    I have much inner work to do.

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    Senior Member celticviking's Avatar
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    There is a movie about this:


    Taylor Schilling as Dagny Taggart
    Grant Bowler as Henry "Hank" Rearden
    Matthew Marsden as James Taggart
    Graham Beckel as Ellis Wyatt
    Edi Gathegi as Edwin "Eddie" Willers
    Jsu Garcia as Francisco Domingo Carlos Andres Sebastian d'Anconia
    Michael Lerner as Wesley Mouch
    Jack Milo as Richard McNamara
    Ethan Cohn as Owen Kellogg
    Rebecca Wisocky as Lillian Rearden
    Christina Pickles as Mother Rearden
    Neill Barry as Philip Rearden
    Patrick Fischler as Paul Larkin
    Sylva Kelegian as Ivy Starnes
    Jon Polito as Orren Boyle
    Michael O'Keefe as Hugh Akston
    Geoff Pierson as Midas Mulligan
    Armin Shimerman as Dr. Potter
    Paul Johansson as John Galt (only in Part 1 as silhouetted figure wearing a trenchcoat and fedora

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Shrugged:_Part_I

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    I wondered what it was about so I read this. I think I'll pass.

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    Senior Member Lady Vengeance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Using reason to form one's ethics and being an Objectivist are two different things. Rand was severely erroneous about a few things. Man is not an 'individual'.
    Right on. We're not "free individuals", we are born into living communities. Unless you're a teenage sperger who believes in Ayn Rand's sociopathic objectivism, you'd know that humans never lived single lives. For better or worse, we have always been a social species.

    The biggest flaw in the Randroid worldview is the totally shallow view on human nature. Nobody is "born free" as the shut-in libertardians want to believe, actually a human is born as a helpless and naked mass of meat, depending on his parents and their civilization to fully become a human being. Without our collective (family, friends, society), we wouldn't have the exact personalities that we have. I wouldn't be Lady Vengeance if not for the human collective around me.

    Objectivism is always about ME ME ME, and fuck everyone else. And yet, many grown-ups embrace this sperger crap. Why the libertardian loons are so incapable of thinking of anything in terms outside themselves is totally beyond me. They seriously think everything in a society should be bought and sold and owned "privately" by the heroic "self-made man", including even the government and national defense. Which is just retarded.

    (I'm actually an individualist weirdo in my real life. I really despise the majority of people, the stupid masses, and part of me would love to be an all-powerful superwoman who doesn't need to give a shit about anything or anyone. So, in that way, I'm against all forms of mindless collectivism. However, I admit that we're social animals and ethnic collectivism is our nature. For better or worse.)

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    I am in the top 1% physically (height & strength) & mentally (IQ) according to my home country's statistics: in a small hypothetical village of a hundred or so people, it would follow I would likely be the biggest, strongest & most intelligent.

    In this hypothetical village, would my duty best be described as 'having my way with the whole village & community' (taking/'owning' whatever I want/am capable of getting away with) or 'being all the more obliged to support & help my village by virtue of my blessings which implicitly make me stronger than any other individual <though not the collective>'?

    -----------
    I would choose the later answer, making me implicitly the servant & friend of my inferior neighbors & kin to the degree my virtues oblige me, though I'd wager Rand would not approve

    I view the randian ideal as delusional & myopic in theory, and parasitically sociopathic in practice.

    In America, I see these types all the time 'cherry picking' which social benefits & which individualistic benefits they would have, though ascribing them all to being 'self made men', ignoring that what wealth they may have was been built on commerce dependent on roads & an economic structure others have sacrificed for. In essence, the subtext of their ideology is calling any of us who've sacrificed to build the structure upon which they acquired their wealth 'suckers'.

    It is a sociopath who comes to a potluck, enjoying the hospitality of the community, while offering nothing in return or as little as they can get away with, and despising those who contribute.

    While I might build the walls of my home, and the fence around my yard, their strength & value only come as a function of my neighbors' respect, and for their homes & yards only through my reciprocation of this respect.

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    Objectivism is a philosophy that tells you to be your own man, think independently, and be free of the stupid masses that can't think for themselves. It makes a lot of sense, in that way.

    On the other hand, ethnic solidarity with your own folk is also important. So I'm very ambiguous about the whole super-individualist idea overall.

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    Senior Member Todesritter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Vengeance View Post
    Right on. We're not "free individuals", we are born into living communities. Unless you're a teenage sperger who believes in Ayn Rand's sociopathic objectivism, you'd know that humans never lived single lives. For better or worse, we have always been a social species.

    The biggest flaw in the Randroid worldview is the totally shallow view on human nature. Nobody is "born free" as the shut-in libertardians want to believe, actually a human is born as a helpless and naked mass of meat, depending on his parents and their civilization to fully become a human being. Without our collective (family, friends, society), we wouldn't have the exact personalities that we have. I wouldn't be Lady Vengeance if not for the human collective around me.

    Objectivism is always about ME ME ME, and fuck everyone else. And yet, many grown-ups embrace this sperger crap. Why the libertardian loons are so incapable of thinking of anything in terms outside themselves is totally beyond me. They seriously think everything in a society should be bought and sold and owned "privately" by the heroic "self-made man", including even the government and national defense. Which is just retarded.

    (I'm actually an individualist weirdo in my real life. I really despise the majority of people, the stupid masses, and part of me would love to be an all-powerful superwoman who doesn't need to give a shit about anything or anyone. So, in that way, I'm against all forms of mindless collectivism. However, I admit that we're social animals and ethnic collectivism is our nature. For better or worse.)

    LOL!
    You are taking it a bit to the extreme aren’t you?
    I mean no one really would expect Babies to fend for themselves.

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