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Thread: Atlas Shrugged [Rand]

  1. #21
    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    Rand's views on government and collective interests is exactly what a Jew wants them to be for a non-Jew. She teaches that we have no collective interests, only personal interests, and that the free markets are the solution for all problems. The government and the courts will be restricted to guard our physical security in the narrowest sense and to the enforcement of contracts.

    If so, please explain how the free markets will clear Europe of immigrants.

    The very moment that you acknowledge that you and someone else, whom you do not know, have common political interests based on blood, you have invalidated Rand.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Rand's views on government and collective interests is exactly what a Jew wants them to be for a non-Jew. She teaches that we have no collective interests, only personal interests, and that the free markets are the solution for all problems. The government and the courts will be restricted to guard our physical security in the narrowest sense and to the enforcement of contracts.

    If so, please explain how the free markets will clear Europe of immigrants.

    The very moment that you acknowledge that you and someone else, whom you do not know, have common political interests based on blood, you have invalidated Rand.
    As far as I can see the "Free Markets" did not bring in the immigrants it was the EU and European Lap Dog governments that did that. Am I not right?

    As for myself I can say that as an American I can get just about any need and most wants fulfilled and most of that comes directly out of Market System innovation. I’m not saying there needs to be NO Government, just a small and focused one.

    Also that does not mean that I support "Corporatism" which in reality is more or less a form of Leveraged Government, passed off on the business world. Small Business is where the innovation is and, it is where the Innovation will always be.

    But here is one for you, How exactly, or exactly what plan does the Swedish government have for dealing with the Immigrants?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
    The welfare state can include health care and increase the quality of life for those not at the helm of a company where the money is. A healthier workforce makes a more productive and healthier society. The ill are often a temporary out of action resource and there is always a pool of unemployed in a capitalist society. If these oh so great 'producers of society' can not distribute work and money well enough, there is a need for state taxes in the modern world. Mainly I am talking about the ruling and management classes here.
    Only Problem here is the "State" distributes wealth way worse than the most greedy corporation does, out of shear inefficiency.

    I will agree with you on one point and that is Heath Care should, or the basics of it, should be to some degree socialized. But here again we come with a problem.

    That problem is called the US Democratic Party, who have repeatedly used "Health Care" as a tool for power. Once again the "State" cannot be trusted to do its job correctly, or even half ass.

    So MOST Americans are NOT Stupid enough to let them have any control until they can clean up their act. Which I think is NOT going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
    Not necessarily, industry can be nationalised. And looking at the capitalist west now, the Chinese are catching up fast and the western lands filled with immigrants and migrant workers.
    The Chinese are every bit as Capitalist as the US or the other So Called Western countries. Might I also add the "West" has taken on all sorts of social disease, that they will not let lose from for "Moral Reasons". What ever economic system you put them under, they will fail.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sehnsucht View Post
    In that review it explains how babies are dependent on their parents at the beginning of life, and how this goes against Rand's delusional idea of individual greatness. Rand is basically an elitist of the worst kind. In Atlas Shrugged she ignores that people do not create great industries by themselves, and that others make a contribution. Babies are not present in the story as there is no way they would fit in with this ultra-individualistic world view.
    Ok first and foremost I'M NOT an apologist for Rand, but I’m also not a lap dog for the "Anti-Market" Kooks. And I hate to tell them Markets are going to be here for a long, long time. And the point about the "Drug Lords" is the "State" here in the US has been fighting them with military grade weapons for years, and I think we know who is winning that one.

    The Crooks all know the "State" is a scam, and sooner or later they will exploit its weakness. The "State" as it currently exist is a loser prospect, no matter how high the ideals, it will go under. And even at its best it is Arbitrary Bull Shit that is decided upon by people that most likely never understood the problem in the first place.

  4. #24
    Senior Member velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EQ Fighter
    As far as I can see the "Free Markets" did not bring in the immigrants it was the EU and European Lap Dog governments that did that. Am I not right?
    The "free markets" imported slaves to America, today (illegal) immigrants fill that role. It was the Liberal/Libertarian view point that an employer can do whatever maximises profits and the govt doesnt have to mess with that. Immigrants are ALWAYS cheaper, whether it's a Mexican or Chinese working for a Dollar/h in a restaurant in America, or a German immigrant 2-star cook immigrating to Switzerland. Again it was the Liberal/Libertarian opinion that work contracts are their thing alone, that govt doesnt have to mess with that, and that the Unions and the socialistic Governments of Europe "hinder" free market with protecting the wage level. In America the Unions are seen as the arch enemy of America. Everyone somehow believes that, and then points at the government - that same government that doesnt have to mess with anything private people do or not do - and whine that they let the immigrants in. Errr, yeah..... right



    Oh, thanks (not!) for "exporting" this nonsense to Europe. We could have lived well without that
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Oh, thanks (not!) for "exporting" this nonsense to Europe. We could have lived well without that
    I think the Germans were already engaging in a market system even back to the Roman period.

    So maybe you guys exported it to us

    In any case the "Salves" were imported by imperialist hundreds of years in the past, and for the most part it was a corporatist enterprise. And official Libertarianism had not even been invented at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Immigrants are ALWAYS cheaper, whether it's a Mexican or Chinese working for a Dollar/h in a restaurant in America, or a German immigrant 2-star cook immigrating to Switzerland.
    Not really because when you start adding up the cost, you have to factor in all the extra expenses that you get with extra people. In reality it is almost always cheaper to Do It Yourself, and that goes for the individual as well as the nation.

    In the modern era with Mechanization machines can do practically everything cheaper and at higher quality than any human, emigrant or not.

    On the other hand, for a Government and especially interest groups that want to overturn the existing population then importing "Immigrants" in the name of Cheap Labour are an ideal option to get instant support.

    What we should be discussing here is not how bad the market system is, but how to move things to the next phase. And that would be how to decentralize production, and open up the business world so corporations do NOT OWN everything.

    IE get rid of Patent Law copyright law. Farm out R&D to small development groups. Then Allow the end result to be sold and produced in multiple communities.

    IE a Practical Option as opposed to a Imaginary Option.

    I think these things can be done even against the will of the Globalist.

    Oh and Labor Unions were NOT Arch Enemies in the US until they were taken over by Ass Wipes like the Democratic Farm Labour organization. Or the modern Democratic Party in the US.

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    To me, race is the natural collective, not the state. Individuals comprise this race and the extreme individuals create its culture. The big debate should be between the state and the individual.

    Should the state be able to oppress an individual of your race if they have harmed none?

    Does the state define your race and culture or do the individuals?

    If you were the head of state, would you oppress the individuals that have not harmed your race because of petty disagreements?

    To me, statism exists to empower itself, and to destroy my race, the state is this selfish child with a utopian dream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oski View Post
    To me, statism exists to empower itself, and to destroy my race, the state is this selfish child with a utopian dream.
    That pretty much sums it up!

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    She became friends with journalist Henry Hazlitt and his wife, and Hazlitt introduced her to the Austrian School economist Ludwig von Mises. Despite her philosophical differences with them, Rand strongly endorsed the writings of both men throughout her career, and both of them expressed admiration for her. Once von Mises referred to Rand as "the most courageous man in America," a compliment that particularly pleased her because he said "man" instead of "woman." Rand also developed a friendship with libertarian writer Isabel Paterson. Rand questioned the well-informed Paterson about American history and politics long into the night during their numerous meetings and gave Paterson ideas for her only nonfiction book, The God of the Machine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand
    Rand was a fan of people known for seminal works such as Individualism and Economic Order; Man, Economy, and State Etc.

    Helen Zille and many other diaspora jews took their que from this behaviour, With links to george soro's open institute’s and the like, always in activism, journalism and the running of political parties. It is unlikely that this behaviour originated with Rosenbaum.

    Interesting that she would stage her story in the milieu of the Greek deities to weave her lie around, the society she speaks of is the one to which we are regressing because of the work that she and her ilk have been working toward so diligently, it is South Africa as it is today:

    However, rather than do anything like that, she constructs a totally bizarre world in which the vast majority of people are total morons, barely capable of feeding themselves, while a very small number of elites know everything, can do anything, and are the only adults in a nation of toddlers.

    This setup simply creates a straw man for Rand to blast away at, telling us that the prime movers of her fantasy world are identical to people in our own world, who are "victimized" by the unwashed masses because of their "greatness." But even Rand understood that the people of her own time were nothing like this, which is why she pulled all of her characters and situations from a mythic bygone era, relying on America's cultural memory to give them any credibility and relevance in the modern age
    From the link Sehnsucht posted: http://sites.google.com/site/atlassucked/part-1

    She is so fixated on her hate for her enemy, Amalek AKA Roman/Christian/Germanic/Latin influenced west that she defecates over one of the oldest myth’s in the “western” world, she makes it a tool for spreading their agenda. The church used pagan symbols to aid conversion so that some people’s heads where spared from being lobbed off in the end. The west is a construct which was first recognised by jews because they needed to identify their target market, and since that day it has been promulgated in the “west”.
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sigyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neophyte View Post
    Or so she said. But remember that she, somehow, managed to get an exit visa from USSR and, unlike so many others, could leave the country legally. No Gulag for that little Jewish girl.
    Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll google it.

    Still, this doesn't mean she didn't believe in her own extreme-individualist politics, just that she hypocritically had a tribal loyalty to her fellow Jews. Many people are able to hold contradictory beliefs in their heads at the same time.

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    Senior Member Neophyte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EQ Fighter View Post
    As far as I can see the "Free Markets" did not bring in the immigrants it was the EU and European Lap Dog governments that did that. Am I not right?
    Well then... Just disband the Border Patrol, let the police focus on providing physical security and leave it to the free markets to deport all your illegal aliens. I'm sure that all the Mexicans would be out of Texas by the end of summer.

    As for myself I can say that as an American I can get just about any need and most wants fulfilled and most of that comes directly out of Market System innovation. I’m not saying there needs to be NO Government, just a small and focused one.
    Pool boys, cheap housemaids, gardeners. Yes, the Holy Market provides.

    But here is one for you, How exactly, or exactly what plan does the Swedish government have for dealing with the Immigrants?
    Oh boy, you really do not see the woods for the trees. Ask not what your government is doing for you, but what you can do about your government.

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