View Poll Results: Are Germans and Austrians the same ethnically, culturally, etc.?

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  • Yes, they are.

    196 83.40%
  • No, they aren't.

    26 11.06%
  • Other Opinion.

    13 5.53%
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Thread: How Do Germany and Austria Compare?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Freydis's Avatar
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    Dagna, not all Austrians are of the opinion that they are German. In my eyes it is like saying that British and Americans or Canadians are the same. They're not. I don't have as much experience in German and Austrian culture, but if that is the comparison made, then the two should be quite different.

    Though I would agree that I should like to hear Sigurd's opinion.
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    Senior Member Brynhild's Avatar
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    Can I add my 2 bob's worth by saying I'm not German at all? LOL Having said that, there are obviously distinctions between the said groups, because of their demographics, dialect and culture. A German from Bavaria (and I know of some) will call themselves Bavarian, while Germans living in the rest of Germany consider themselves to be German. Austrians are Austrians, they would not have themselves called German thanks very much, any more than a Scot would be called English!

    This has been hashed and rehashed already, and from several threads in recent times, I suspect more of a personality clash than any valid debate pertaining to any of them.

    All I can say to that is Mein Gott, das is sheisse!

    Now I will duck LOL
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  3. #33
    Naturbursche Boche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    Where are the cultural differences between Germany and Austria?
    - The Food
    - The religious Rituals (In Austria they celebrate Krampustag instead of St. Nikolaus)
    - Austria has it's own style of cultural traditional music
    - Different traditional Tales and Myths

    That doesn't mean that Austria shouldn't be a Part of Germany. Austrians and Germans are not against it, but it's too complicated because even in Germany the Culture differes alot.
    In Bavaria they're totally different in nearly everything compared to Hessen, Or you also could never compare Nordrheinwestfalen with the Ruhrpott, altough the Ruhrpott is a Part of Nordrheinwestfalen, but the People and Culture there differs alot.




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  4. #34
    Funding Member Dagna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    Dagna, not all Austrians are of the opinion that they are German. In my eyes it is like saying that British and Americans or Canadians are the same. They're not. I don't have as much experience in German and Austrian culture, but if that is the comparison made, then the two should be quite different.
    America and Canada are colonies and continents away from England. I don't believe it is a good comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Next World View Post
    Technically, ebonics is a standard variety of American English, which is a standard variety of English.

    Does this mean that people who are part of an ebonic-speaking culture are English, Dagna?
    No, I believe those who speak ebonics are foreigners. Austrians are ethnically German.
    Quote Originally Posted by brynhild View Post
    Having said that, there are obviously distinctions between the said groups, because of their demographics, dialect and culture. A German from Bavaria (and I know of some) will call themselves Bavarian, while Germans living in the rest of Germany consider themselves to be German. Austrians are Austrians, they would not have themselves called German thanks very much, any more than a Scot would be called English!
    I have visited Germany and the other Germans use regional denominations too, not just the Bavarians. I know Austrians who would like to be called German. I believe there are words like Österreichisches Deutsch and Deutschösterreich. Oh, and the German speaking forum on the Althing, Die Deutschen Länder has an Austrian flag too.


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Next World View Post
    Does this mean that people who are part of an ebonic-speaking culture are English, Dagna?
    American Blacks and Englishmen didn't spend millenia together in the Holy Roman Empire and tribal Germania, NW! Let's keep our analogies sensible! Austrians and Germans are the closest of kin, no matter what individuals among them may feel about those who live over the political border.
    Austrians are a very different people, except from the Bavarians. I thought this was a pretty common sense thing. Alpine culture had a tendency to develop around the Alps, it would seem.
    And not in the Andes? ::p
    Do Bavarians differ horrendously from Franconians or Swabians? I think not. Do they from Thuringians, and they from Hessians, and they from Saxons, and they from Rhinelanders, and they from the Dutch? These are all shades within a spectrum, and we can't be making such flat statements.
    And I think there was some sort of plot to have more Alpinid people around there, too...
    Uh oh, Papish Plots... :p
    It depends upon the Austrian you ask, but most of the ones I have met or spoken with are Austrians--not Germans.
    The wonders of denationalised education...
    There's even a variation on a close-level. My brother says we're "German" on our maternal side, I don't. Germanic, I will tolerate, but to call that side of our family "German" would be like calling the North Irish or the Welsh "British".
    No it wouldn't!!! eyes:
    The Northern Irish are British in a real ethnic sense, being mostly a mixture of Scots and Northern English from the time of the Plantations.
    The word Welsh is only what invading Germans called the native Britons. You don't get more British than that!
    British has several layered meanings in different contexts - racial, ethnic, geographical, cultural and political.
    Or perhaps, more accurately in some senses, it would be like calling "Americans" in general "British".
    These new colonial creations can't be profitably compared with Old World formations.
    I, on the other hand, am an American of predominately Germanic descent. I wouldn't call myself Volksdeutsche, that would be a farce, although I'm probably closer to being such than a lot of people who would consider themselves that.
    That's reasonable.
    The original meaning of Volksdeutsch is inseparable from the peculiar history of German settlement of eastern Europe. It meant people who had maintained their language and culture and to all intents and purposes were indistinguishable from their cousins who had stayed home. America has not really allowed a similar situation to develop.

    For linguistic questions about Austria and the Federal Republic of Germany's interrelatedness and internal variation, this is an interesting link :
    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=2938

  6. #36
    Senior Member Next World's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagna View Post
    No, I believe those who speak ebonics are foreigners. Austrians are ethnically German.
    What's that supposed to mean? Austrians have a greater tendency toward Alpinid traits, while there are more Nordic traits in Northern Germany. Are you saying that anyone who falls within the Nordic-Alpinid range can be considered ethnically German?
    Polygamy: it might not be for you, but what right do you have to keep it from me?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Soldier of Wodann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Next World View Post
    What's that supposed to mean? Austrians have a greater tendency toward Alpinid traits, while there are more Nordic traits in Northern Germany. Are you saying that anyone who falls within the Nordic-Alpinid range can be considered ethnically German?
    What kind of point are you trying to make here? : Why wouldn't Alpinids be German as well? The German race isn't based on the Nordic sub-race, or any sub-race really (besides Europid).

    As for making the point Austrians don't THINK they are German, who cares? Majority opinion doesn't mean anything. If Saarland was made its own country tommorow, would I not be Deutsch just because it is a seperate country? If, in 50 years, the Saar people no longer considered themselves Deutsch, would it matter? Has the race changed? Have the customs and culture? No.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Soldier of Wodann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    I wonder why the German and Austrian Empires are separate...?

    For the most part I've found that Austrians and Germans consider themselves to be different.
    What a null point. Note that part of the "Austrian" kingdom also incorporated parts of Modern Germany. I guess South Germans aren't German either, because they've historically been ruled by a different monarchy. By the same logic, I guess Southern and Northern Italians aren't both Italian, one being ruled by Sicily and the other by Milan or Venice. State lines don't indicate anything, especially modernly and middle ages. People took whatever land they could, often enough, such as the French, Spanish, Portuguese, Normans, Russians, whatever. The only reason Austria wasn't part of the second Reich was because Prussia wanted more power, thats all. They were still German, are still German, and will continue to be, despite whatever arbitrary boundaries the glorious Allies put up after WW2, and despite what traitorous Jews and foreigners drill into Austrians' heads.

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    Dagna, not all Austrians are of the opinion that they are German.
    Though I would agree that I should like to hear Sigurd's opinion.
    It's long been a matter of discussion, and for those who speak German, I can recommend the excellent book Oesterreich - ein deutscher Sonderfall? by Andreas Mölzer, a (himself deutschnational) FPOe politician who wrote about this in the late 1980s (i.e. before the "unification"). I tend to agree with a lot of what he says in the book about nationhood. Amongst other things, he says that you cannot choose to be suddenly "divorce" your nation, dinstinct nations form in a progression of time.

    A nation is defined by cultural, linguistic and historical unity. Germans and Austrians share all of those. OK, some may say that there is a lot of difference between us and Northern Germans ... yea, and? I suppose that everyone will agree though that Southern Germans and Austrians are much closer in culture with each other than Southern Germans and Northern Germans. So, the way I always explain it - either you speak of Austria being part of a German nation, or you don't speak of a German nation at all.

    Making Austrians feel not being German was a huge matter of re-education, and we are brought up to believe that we aren't just a constructed state. They tried to construct a cultural nation out of our Southern German (Bavarian and Alemannic) culture, trying to make it distinct. Wishing it were so doesn't make it true. Either it would make us part of a larger Bavaro-Alemannic nation, or in fact part of a Greater German nation.

    Indeed, it has gone as far as a so-called "Austria patriotism" resurging, and many people don't identify themselves with the larger brother, however I yet have to find any sound arguments beyond polemics of re-education to prove that we're any different from the Germans. My ancestors all spoke German, and followed similar traditions, regardless of whether they were born in Switzerland, Austria or Southern Germany (which the lion's share were), so I fail to see where we'd be so different.

    Let's take a look at some maps of Europe through history...
    The maps are somewhat treacherous. You had the Holy Roman Empire, which was German. Interestingly enough, the emperors of that German empire were the Habsburg family - i.e. the Austrians (though one could argue that the ruling family themselves were really Swiss-Germans originally ). The maps don't highlight this ... they also feature Prussia in there, which was obviously partially within said boundaries, but also - like Austria - had belongings outwith German boundaries.

    When the Holy Roman Empire was dissolved, Francis II (Francis I of Austria) founded the Austrian Empire (later to become the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1867). However, look look, Austria (but not her Empire) was still included in the German bund of 1815.

    The only reason Austria wasn't part of the German Empire was because of the Austro-Prussian War. Since I cannot be bothered having to type out the german relations 1815-1871 again, I will take the freedom to just advise everyone to read up my "pre-unification German history in a nutshell" here

    Finally, the other interesting matter is obviously the fact that between the Armistice and the St. Germain Treaty, Austria was called "Deutschösterreich" until they forbade any connection with Germany. Austrians between the wars felt that their new state was an abomination and wanted to join up with the larger brother.


    - The Food
    Austrian food is only partially influenced by imperial notions. Sure we have Gulasch, Powidltascherl and Buchteln on our menu, most of it is however a Viennese notion, really. The farther west you get, the more you have a less Slavified or Ugrified cuisine, going gradually into other Bajuvarian/Alemannic areas.

    - The religious Rituals (In Austria they celebrate Krampustag instead of St. Nikolaus)
    That is wrong. We celebrate St. Nikolaus on the 6th of December, and Krampustag on the 5th of December. The Krampuslauf as well as the Perchtenlauf idea is based directly upon the Germanic mythic Wild Hunt.

    - Different traditional Tales and Myths
    This links up well with the last point. The Perchtenlauf is based upon the notion that Perchta leads the Wild Hunt. Perchta, by association is another name for the Germanic goddess Holda/Frigg ... whom you have appear as Frau Holle in Hessian traditional folktales, and who still found her way into the name of the Lower Austrian city of Hollabrunn. [If you still have the time on your hands, feel free to read my article on Holda here.]

    Local tales will obviously differ, but Tyrolese tales will differ from Salzburgian tales the same way that Saxon tales will differ from Thuringian tales. That is hardly an argument to be made, thus.

    - Austria has it's own style of cultural traditional music
    Again, maybe not the strongest argument to make in highlighting differences. Once more, it is very similar to Bavarian traditional music, and it goes as far as both traditional songs, as well as songs by songwriters from Austria getting often confused with Bavarian ones (On a light-hearted note, the goal score music for FC Bayern Munich is indeed the Zillertaler Hochzeitsmarsch, the Ziller Valley obviously being in Tyrol, Austria. ). Once more, there is no clear cut boundary between "Austrian music" and "German music", Hessian music and Slesvigian music will obviously be quite different as well.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Brynhild's Avatar
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    >>>>Comes in quietly - drops bomb.

    THE AUSTRIANS WERE CELTIC!

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    >>>>>leaves after having had the sheisse hit the fan! hehe
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