View Poll Results: Are Germans and Austrians the same ethnically, culturally, etc.?

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  • Yes, they are.

    196 83.40%
  • No, they aren't.

    26 11.06%
  • Other Opinion.

    13 5.53%
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Thread: How Do Germany and Austria Compare?

  1. #21
    Member soffio_di_wotan's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: AW: Germany and Austria

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    For many "Austrian" or "German" artists the distinction cannot be made anyway, since clear borders and differences are an invention of the post WW2 propaganda mostly, Communist invention originally. I mean most German regions had at one time an own state in Germany, the difference is just that whats now Austria was ruled by the Habsburg family and finally excluded in the "minor German solution". Originally the revolutionaries of 1848 f.e. felt German and sent still their own representatives to Frankfurt. The German union was still alive, including Austria, until the Prussian-Austrian war 1866, called the German-German War, German Fratricidal War or simply German war - Prussia and Austria were just the leading countries of the respective alliances. But even then many other countries were independent from Prussia too. It was not before 1871 that the division was made clear.
    In some areas the borders are very unclear even, changed quite often, f.e. Salzburg was for a long time independent, then by Bavaria, later Austria, changed its affiliations more than once. Vorarlberg is an Allemannic country, whereas the rest is Bavarian by ethnic border-dialect. On the other hand people from the same Austrian part of the Bavarian-Austrian dialect group from Bohemia and Moravia are still being called deutsch/German, namely the Southern Sudentendeutsche or Deutsch-Böhmen. This border was, once again, drawn very arbitrarily after the 1st WW. So thats like letting someone decide with dices who's German and whos Austrian. Obviously there is no contradiction since a Saxon or Bavarian is both too, German and ...
    And to ask people like Mozart what they were...well, even if they would have answered Austrian, that would have never been a contradiction since there were many independent kingdoms, it was just Austrias story that the Habsburgs stood out of the new German empire - it was a difference between Prussians and Austrians, but both were German by ethno-linguistic standards obviously. How can it be explained that Bavarians are considered German together with Prussians, but Austrians not, since they are much closer to Bavarians than Prussians are.
    Not to speak of the fact that most of Austria was already German when not even all parts of the modern, already reduced BRD might have been fully under Germanic control again. Austria in its core is just Upper and Lower Austria, all other parts came later under the rule of the Habsburg's and were originally independent countries as well. The Habsburg's are the main, if not the only thing which united them and made them different from say todays Bavaria. Again, the border did change over time too and the ethno-linguistic-dialect border is as well (especially if looking at Vorarlberg or the border between Bavaria and Austria, between "Sudetendeutsche" areas and Austria again) unclear.

    Not that Austria has not its own character, but still, its an essentially German character. State and ethno-linguistic as well as cultural borders are two different things. Since it was about culture...
    Things become even more strange if Scandinavians are being put together, though the differences are finally bigger than between Austrians and Germans, Bavarians and Austrians in particular.

    About the ethno-linguistic borders, different dialects inside of the German folk:


    Other view on it:


    Whats clear is, that the differences inside of the current BRD are by ethno-linguistic standards bigger than those between f.e. Bavarians and Austrians and all differences smaller than those between Scandinavians.

    I've seen what that Maps are a little mistaken because all Nord Italy is from Germanic culture and blood. The Nord Italy was one germanic nation called itself: Langbard with Pavia like capital.
    North Italy was conquired to popular level from many germanics etnic groups like: longobards, bavarian, gotisch people.....and others. Aboveall it was conquired from longobards people who were aliated of insubrian celtic group.

    Beside we don't must forget what Friaul region was Austria's site too !!
    .....and we don't must forget what all germanics etnics groups are comming from scandinavian places and not Indoeuropa like latin and slavic groups are comming.
    They were comming from scandinavian place to:
    Deutschland
    Austria
    Great Britain
    Netherlands
    Belgium
    Swiss
    Denmark
    Latvia
    Lithuan
    Estland
    Nord Italy ( Langbard )
    France
    Hungary
    Czechoslovakia

    These nations should to became one nation i think.


  2. #22
    Senior Member -jmw-'s Avatar
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    AW: Germany and Austria

    @ soffio di wotan

    There are no mistakes in the maps.
    They are just not showing what you think they do.
    These maps are not about Germanic people, but about areas where a German is spoken or was spoken until 1918/19 and 1945/46 respectively.

    because all Nord Italy is from Germanic culture and blood
    As far as I can see, Padania is italian in cultural matters.

    When it comes to "blood", i.e. genetic ancestry, I think it cannot be fully germanic because of the Celts and Romans who lived there.
    It has a mixed heritage.

    .....and we don't must forget what all germanics etnics groups are comming from scandinavian places and not Indoeuropa like latin and slavic groups are comming.
    If this were right (it isn't), how do you explain the similarities between Germanic languages and the romanic, slavic, greek, armenian, persian and some indian languages?

    Of course the Germanic people are not fully indo-european, first because this is more of a language group than an ethnic, second because the indo-european people assimilated the pre-indo-european population.

    Greetings from Germany,
    -jmw-
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #23
    Member soffio_di_wotan's Avatar
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    Thumbs Up Re: Germany and Austria

    Osterreich ist Deutschland !! ...und auch Friaul und Sud Tirol es ist !

  4. #24
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    Staff note: discussion split from thread Reichsdeutsch, Auslandsdeutsch or Volksdeutsch?


    You said in the first post that Reischdeutsche live in Germany, not Austria as well. I think there is also a cultural distinction between the two. They are similar, yes, but not the same.
    People turn to poison as quick as lager turns to piss

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freydis View Post
    You said in the first post that Reischdeutsche live in Germany, not Austria as well. I think there is also a cultural distinction between the two. They are similar, yes, but not the same.
    I consider Austria to be rightfully a part of Germany. Which cultural distinction?


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Freydis's Avatar
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    Let's take a look at some maps of Europe through history...
    1400



    Oh look, separate Austrian and German kingdoms. Fancy that.
    1600


    Oh look, an Austrian empire and separate German states.

    1800


    Oh look, the same case.

    1900


    I wonder why the German and Austrian Empires are separate...?

    For the most part I've found that Austrians and Germans consider themselves to be different.
    People turn to poison as quick as lager turns to piss

  7. #27
    Funding Member Dagna's Avatar
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    I believe you should notice I said rightfully. Your argument that they were different states does not change that. Heard of the Anschluss? It was probably one of the few things the National Socialists did right.



    By the way, I don't believe you have answered my question. Where are the cultural differences between Germany and Austria?


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  8. #28
    Senior Member Freydis's Avatar
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    You'd think being separate states for the past 500+ years would have something to do with cultural differences. But the Anschluss was short.. and please stop asking me if I've heard of things. I have.

    Let's start. Different language. I'll make a chart of some words and you can tell me how similar they are. This isn't dialect really, it's a different strain of German. You wouldn't say the Swiss are German, would you?

    English: Tomato
    German: Tomate
    Austrian German: Paradeiser

    English: cream
    German: Sahne
    Austrian German: Schlagobers

    English: this year
    German: dieses Jahr
    Austrian German: heuer

    Linguistic differences aside, they are indeed somewhat culturally similar to Southwest Germans. HOWEVER, most Austrians do not like being compared with or called German. They distinguish themselves from Germany. Obviously if they considered themselves to be German they would have wanted to continue with Anschluss.
    People turn to poison as quick as lager turns to piss

  9. #29
    Funding Member Dagna's Avatar
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    Austrian German is just another variety of German so that does not refute what I said about Austrians being Germans.

    Austrian German (Österreichisches Deutsch) is the national standard variety of the German language spoken in Austria and South Tyrol.

    As German is a Pluricentric language, Austrian German is another standard variety in addition to the High German spoken in Germany. Much like the relationship between American and British English, Austrian German is simply another standard form of the German language. There is no standardized Austrian language but a variety of High German dialects are spoken, even though there is an "Österreichisches Wörterbuch" which states specific grammar rules and is a dictionary using Austrian spelling.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_German

    Since Austrians are German Austria and Germany should belong together. There won't be another Anschluss because it is illegal to say that Austrians are German, I believe it classifies as National Socialist instigation and sends someone to prison. But I would rather be interested in the thoughts of the Austrian and German members of the Althing. The moderator Sigurd has picked Germany for his country and Tyrol for his state. I believe Tyrol is in Austria.


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

  10. #30
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    Gott in Himmel, ladies, what's all this about?! How can someone who lives in the OesterREICH not be REICHsdeutsch?
    Most Austrians speak a sort of Bavarian.
    Does anyone think for a moment that continuing the Anschluss was even a remote possibility after absolute defeat in the War?
    Don't be so quick to patronise (matronise? ), Freydis, when your own understanding of an ethnological point is superficial itself, and based to a large extent on coloured blocks on a map! Can we say the Swiss are German? A few Swiss Germans might have some opinion on that, making up the majority of the Swiss population as they do! Swiss is hardly an ethnic description. German is. Do you think those Germans who lived in the Sudety had more in common with Viennese Germans who were seperated from them by a few million Czechs, or with their immediate neighbours down the hill in Sachsen?
    As for making analogies between Austrian Germans and American English - a better analogy from a linguistic point of view might be the Lowland Scots, who speak Northumbrian English. Ethnically, however, they've sadly forgotten their Englishness for the most part, unlike the Austrians.

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