View Poll Results: Who was Jesus? (check all that apply)

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  • The son of God who died on the cross for the sins of mankind

    16 41.03%
  • One of several prophets or messengers of God

    3 7.69%
  • A Jewish revolutionary figure executed for his controversial ideas

    13 33.33%
  • I don't care who he was

    5 12.82%
  • A fairy tale, he never existed

    6 15.38%
  • Undecided

    3 7.69%
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Thread: Who Was Jesus?

  1. #41
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    Tacitus Annals AD 116:

    Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.
    ...

    Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.[13]
    Most modern scholars consider the passage to be authentic. William L. Portier has stated that the consistency in the references by Tacitus, Josephus and the letters to Emperor Trajan by Pliny the Younger reaffirm the validity of all three accounts. Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to be of historical value as an independent Roman source about early Christianity that is in unison with other historical records. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    The problem is that there's about a 30-year gap between his birth and his brief reappearance and what little has been told about him (miracles etc..) is almost certainly invented.
    Joseph of Arimathea who gave his tomb for the burial was a wealthy tin merchant, and may have been the richest man in that part of the world at that time. He made many trips to Britain where he had tin mines. It is possible that Jesus Himself accompanied Joseph on voyages there during His childhood.
    Although the word "Commando" was wrongly used to describe all Boer soldiers, a commando was a unit formed from a particular district. None of the units was organized in regular companies, battalions or squadrons. The Boer commandos were individualists who were difficult to control, resented formal discipline or orders, and earned a British jibe that"every Boer was his own general".

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  5. #43
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    It is possible that Jesus Himself accompanied Joseph on voyages there during His childhood.
    And equally possible that he didn't

    Either way, we don't gain any more of an insight into Jesus as a person before the age of 30.

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    Fake news were not tolerated those days............CNN was not there yet.........LOL

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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaxonPagan View Post
    The problem is that there's about a 30-year gap between his birth and his brief reappearance and what little has been told about him (miracles etc..) is almost certainly invented.
    Jews boast about how their ancestors went into the desert for answers. The NT describes him going up to the mountains to pray alone. That's what the Samaritan described her worship custom as in John 4. The Jews even counted him among the Samaritans, which points to a non-Jewish origin.

    Besides Moses, what other Jewish figure ever climbed a mountain?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittereinder View Post
    Tacitus Annals AD 116:
    Suetonius' Chrestus was a Jewish revolutionary agitator/leader, not Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwab View Post
    The Mormons claim he was in America...............
    A sympathetic author attempted to a similar trick in the book "He Walked the Americas" by invoking the authority of Polynesian Sir Peter Buck. Mr. Buck never explicitly mentions Jesus in his book when he recounts the visitation of a certain healer figure. It's blatant cultural appropriation at best.

    On the other hand, I find it plausible that Jesus may have visited India.

  9. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus
    Plus there's the testimony about him being the son of a Roman soldier
    It's only Talmudic slander - Jews call Christ's mother a prostitute who was impregnated by a Roman soldier rather than the Holy Spirit. And this then also serves as an explanation for Christ's take on the Roman occupiers.

    On the other hand, I find it plausible that Jesus may have visited India.
    Christ supposedly visiting Britain or India is part of Christian folklore - there's indeed a tomb in Kashmir which you can still visit and where Christ is supposedly buried, but my money is on this site being the grave of an early Christian preacher or apostle, or more likely a Medieval Muslim preacher, which is what historians think it is. The reason why this location is known as Christ's tomb in our day and age has more to do with luring tourists to Kashmir than with historical truth. I don't believe Christ ever left His home region myself, I find it all very farfetched.

    The Jews even counted him among the Samaritans, which points to a non-Jewish origin.
    Samaritans were of Jewish blood though. I'm not aware of the Jews viewing Christ as a Samaritan however, but Galileans like Himself would've been seen as not Jewish enough by other Jews.
    “War is waged by men; not by beasts, or by gods. It is a peculiarly human activity. To call it a crime against mankind is to miss at least half its significance; it is also the punishment of a crime.” - Frederic Manning, The Middle Parts of Fortune

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  11. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    It's only Talmudic slander - Jews call Christ's mother a prostitute who was impregnated by a Roman soldier rather than the Holy Spirit. And this then also serves as an explanation for Christ's take on the Roman occupiers.
    Partly slander. What's so bad about the possibility of having a Roman soldier as a father?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Christ supposedly visiting Britain or India is part of Christian folklore - there's indeed a tomb in Kashmir which you can still visit and where Christ is supposedly buried, but my money is on this site being the grave of an early Christian preacher or apostle, or more likely a Medieval Muslim preacher, which is what historians think it is. The reason why this location is known as Christ's tomb in our day and age has more to do with luring tourists to Kashmir than with historical truth. I don't believe Christ ever left His home region myself, I find it all very farfetched.
    Historians aren't archaeologists.

    Almost all religious founders have found it necessary to traverse continents and participate in an interchange of culture. If Christ was stranded in Galilee, he'd be inferior to the learned Alexandrian Jews.

    One could argue that he was omniscient so he didn't have to venture out and learn anything, but Mark 13:32 and Eccl. 3:11 have set limitations on his knowledge. Plus the question necessarily arises: what on earth did he even spent 30 years of his youth doing? No miracles, no teachings, yet he supposedly knew everything. To know how to help people but not do anything to relieve them of their misery is just plain pacifism. Another example: "Jesus wept." So instead of immediately coming to Lazarus' aid, he stood there doing nothing useful? Was he just loafing around? Why do we compare him to a shepherd, an occupation which was universally loathed in antiquity? It will be seen that all truly great men affirm the principle of work and it's necessity. Jesus would not even recognize this teaching that "one can be saved by just believing in this creed".

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Samaritans were of Jewish blood though. I'm not aware of the Jews viewing Christ as a Samaritan however, but Galileans like Himself would've been seen as not Jewish enough by other Jews.
    Were they?

    See John 8:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminus
    Partly slander. What's so bad about the possibility of having a Roman soldier as a father?
    Then there's no Christ, no resurrection, no salvation and no meaningful Christianity. The crucifiction would also be pointless. Christianity would've died together with the Roman Empire if its adherents believed something like that, it would be one more cult in a declining Roman Empire. If I believed Christ's father was a Roman soldier instead of the Holy Spirit, I would not be a Christian.

    Yes, you could still argue in favor of those defunct forms of Christianity in which Christ was merely a man, but they're a waste of time.

    Almost all religious founders have found it necessary to traverse continents and participate in an interchange of culture. If Christ was stranded in Galilee, he'd be inferior to the learned Alexandrian Jews.
    Not inferior if Jesus of Nazareth happens to be God - even if some things remained hidden even for the son before leaving this mortal coil. And Christ's stomping ground may have been rather cosmopolitan, He didn't need to travel to come into contact with Greek philosophy and Oriental wisdom. I'm fully aware of this supposed trip to India prior to Christ's public life - if you want to believe in it, fine, but it's only folklore. Traveling that far back in the day, well beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire, staying in India for a brief time and making it home again before turning 30 is a serious challenge. It's no more credible than Christ's holiday in Britain with the druids or Mary Magdalene living in a cave in Southern France in 50 AD.

    Plus the question necessarily arises: what on earth did he even spent 30 years of his youth doing?
    We don't know. Working in his dad's shop most likely. It wasn't the time to act yet. But He wasn't like other kids either, so Christ probably was an unusual young man too.

    Why do we compare him to a shepherd, an occupation which was universally loathed in antiquity?
    He's a shepherd of men.

    "Jesus wept." So instead of immediately coming to Lazarus' aid, he stood there doing nothing useful?
    Christ wept for the bereaved, people of his inner circle whom He would've been very familiar with - Lazarus too was a friend. Christ knew He was going to resurrect Lazarus and didn't weep for Lazarus. Not acting straightaway is irrelevant, you don't get to understand God and neither does God have to jump through loopholes to please mere mortals who can't see the bigger picture. Pain, sickness and death are all temporary and relative. And God doesn't have to bend over backwards for the "gib me dis, gib me dat" crowd.

    It will be seen that all truly great men affirm the principle of work and it's necessity. Jesus would not even recognize this teaching that "one can be saved by just believing in this creed".
    Indeed, be a Catholic, faith alone is not enough. Yet only through the son does one reach the father. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6

    Were they?

    See John 8:48.
    John 8:48: The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    Christ ignores the first part of the question, but the answer is no. He answers they're dishonoring Him with their line of questioning. Christ's parents aren't Samaritan and Christ's home town is in Nazareth in Galilee. It's just the Jews being of little faith.
    “War is waged by men; not by beasts, or by gods. It is a peculiarly human activity. To call it a crime against mankind is to miss at least half its significance; it is also the punishment of a crime.” - Frederic Manning, The Middle Parts of Fortune

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Then there's no Christ, no resurrection, no salvation and no meaningful Christianity. The crucifiction would also be pointless. Christianity would've died together with the Roman Empire if its adherents believed something like that, it would be one more cult in a declining Roman Empire. If I believed Christ's father was a Roman soldier instead of the Holy Spirit, I would not be a Christian.
    Yes, you could still argue in favor of those defunct forms of Christianity in which Christ was merely a man, but they're a waste of time.
    The narrative says the Holy Spirit later descended upon him, which contradicts the notion that he was born with it.

    The reason why Christianity survived and the Western half of Rome fell was due to it adapting to the social conditions better. In Mein Kampf, Hitler describes how the Pan-German movement failed to take into account the social aspect. In the letters of Julian, Julian describes how badly neglected socialism was among the pagans.

    Letter 22, To Arsacius:
    For indeed no one, a little while ago, would have ventured even to pray for a change of such a sort or so complete within so short a time. Why, then, do we think that this is enough, why do we not observe that it is their benevolence to strangers, their care for the graves of the dead and the pretended holiness of their lives that have done most to increase atheism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Not inferior if Jesus of Nazareth happens to be God - even if some things remained hidden even for the son before leaving this mortal coil. And Christ's stomping ground may have been rather cosmopolitan, He didn't need to travel to come into contact with Greek philosophy and Oriental wisdom. I'm fully aware of this supposed trip to India prior to Christ's public life - if you want to believe in it, fine, but it's only folklore. Traveling that far back in the day, well beyond the boundaries of the Roman Empire, staying in India for a brief time and making it home again before turning 30 is a serious challenge. It's no more credible than Christ's holiday in Britain with the druids or Mary Magdalene living in a cave in Southern France in 50 AD.
    Nowhere was it taught that Jesus was god. It always emphasized that he was a Son of God. This erroneous teaching arises from misinterpretation of his "I am" statements. The "I" doesn't even refer to Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    We don't know. Working in his dad's shop most likely. It wasn't the time to act yet. But He wasn't like other kids either, so Christ probably was an unusual young man too.
    That sounds monotonous. We read about how he amazed Mary and Joseph in his early visits to the Temple with his discourses with the Rabbis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    He's a shepherd of men.
    Shepherds foster dependence. They are scarcely emancipators. Maybe they fend off wolves, but they don't teach their sheep to fend for themselves. What was the point of Jesus' expulsion of demons into pigs in Mark 5? Why did he make himself vulnerable here? And let's not forget about the teaching of the mustard seed and the faith that moves mountains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Christ wept for the bereaved, people of his inner circle whom He would've been very familiar with - Lazarus too was a friend. Christ knew He was going to resurrect Lazarus and didn't weep for Lazarus.
    Not acting straightaway is irrelevant, you don't get to understand God and neither does God have to jump through loopholes to please mere mortals who can't see the bigger picture. Pain, sickness and death are all temporary and relative. And God doesn't have to bend over backwards for the "gib me dis, gib me dat" crowd.
    So if a modern doctor tells the family of his terminally ill patient that the patient is dying and then breaks down in front of them despite knowing, that's a reasonable conduct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    Indeed, be a Catholic, faith alone is not enough. Yet only through the son does one reach the father. "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6
    If Jesus was sent by god, he wouldn't need to testify about himself. It'd be self-evident and obvious to people, even in their denial.

    I'd wager that the "I" here and elsewhere indicates all guides for life (i.e. Plato, Copernicus, Goethe, Nietzsche), great statesmen (i.e. Augustus, Aurelius, Frederick the Great), religious founders (i.e. Confucius, Buddha, Mohammed), and reformers (i.e. Martin Luther, Schopenhauer, Wagner).

    The Hindus talk about how the religious feeling found in all religions lead people to the deity. It's not just statues of Virgin Mary that are inexplicably preserved in the aftermath of natural disasters. It's not just the churches that experience and document "miracles" (levitation i.e. Giuseppe da Copertino). These are not the counterfeit "signs and wonders" of demons. It's not remotely possible for angels to "fall" and "rebel". Every nation has an angel which presides over it (Daniel 10).

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlodovech View Post
    John 8:48: The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”

    Christ ignores the first part of the question, but the answer is no. He answers they're dishonoring Him with their line of questioning. Christ's parents aren't Samaritan and Christ's home town is in Nazareth in Galilee. It's just the Jews being of little faith.
    Alfred Rosenberg mentions a 4th century preacher (Ephraem) who believed that Jesus was the son of a Syrian mother and Roman father. This Ephraem just happens to be a saint in Catholic canon. Was he dishonoring Jesus by this speculation? Then why reckon him as a saint? It's not doing harm to the Church to represent Jesus as a non-Jew.

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    The only Jesus Christ I know is the one in the Holy Scriptures. Millions of books have been written about him and none tell you the whole truth.
    To know him is to accept him as your Savior. I believe in an afterlife and I'm comfortable in my belief. I don't speculate...........

    "No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6"

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