View Poll Results: Who was Jesus? (check all that apply)

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  • The son of God who died on the cross for the sins of mankind

    16 42.11%
  • One of several prophets or messengers of God

    3 7.89%
  • A Jewish revolutionary figure executed for his controversial ideas

    12 31.58%
  • I don't care who he was

    4 10.53%
  • A fairy tale, he never existed

    6 15.79%
  • Undecided

    3 7.89%
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Thread: Who Was Jesus?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    ...and (same quote, later): "Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ".

    Old Persian belief already knows a "Trinity" - of Asha, Rashnu and Mithra --- perhaps the idea of the Holy Trinity is also concocted out of that myth?

    There are also other similarities, supposedly, such as his sending as a "savior of the world" --- this could essentially have changed the perception of Jesus as a son-of-god rather than a mere man; possibly a way to make the faith more attractive to followers of Mithraism. If that were not enough, he appears with a "Halo" in depiction as "Sol Invictus".

    Whilst it is maybe not the sole root, I cannot rule out influences from Mithraism upon Christianity, especially upon the Jesus myth, which will have made it more attractive to the Romans.
    Sure, the myth is made up from several cultures, and Sol Invictus / Mithraism and Zoroastrianism(?) will have their part in the collection.
    But that myth sphere down there I actually have too less knowledge of (and lack of interest in), to pick out every detail

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    Is Christianity really fully monotheistic itself, or does it just have a strict hierarchy of gods itself: God-characters and holy people?
    Indeed it is monotheistic, there is only one God. His supposed son is only that, a son with a human (very un-godly) body. Actually, Jesus is a bastard if one wants to be mean . Doubt falls in with the holy spirit, but this also is just a form God takes.
    The holy people do not really count, even if they were worshipped like other local gods in pagan times, but it was not intended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    Remember, Christians demonise us Heathens for following a multitude of gods --- but themselves have no troubles believing in a Holy Trinity and hundreds and thousands of Saints; who are essentially given a near-demigod hero status and oft worshipped similarly to known hero-worship and the worship of lesser "domestic gods".
    They demonised our gods because they are other gods than 'the god'. Would be the same if we had a form of monotheism ourselves, they would have demonised it.
    And dont mix heavenly servants (angels, saints whatever) with god-like status. They had certainly not. Their appearance surely can be traces back to the old pagan traditions, where it was common practice and thus christianity felt it required to include this practice.
    For the angels part see Kabbala, the angels sure are jewish, and their place is far below God. They are just servants, and the armies of angels do not even have an own will, they completely rely on god's commands.
    The archangels might be something different, they were more than just mere servants, still they dont possess god-like status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    That's essentially half-way there. If I told you I were a Germanic Heathen, but that the Islamic prophet Mohammed were my "battle spirit", it's just a matter of splitting hairs.
    Actually not, because Constantine changed his attitude several times towards christianity. And even back then there already have been several sects arguing about who's the one with all the wisdom, trying to have the others banned (what Constantine did two times, both later reversed). Constantine understood very well that christianity was a great tool to rule, but he also understood that he actually had unleashed a beast within the boundaries of his reign that is hard to tame. The several attempts to order the structures of the several split-up-sects show that clearly. I strongly doubt that he was too fond of this belief.
    And you wouldnt raise the first valkyrie that comes along to your new god neither, so this argumentation is not really valid
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
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    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  2. #22
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    The Christian view on Jesus Christ

    Holy Scriptures teaches, the early ecumenical councils affirm, and we fervently believe and have experience the reality that Jesus the Christ is fully God and fully man. As the ancient Nicean Creed declares: He is "light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father".

    All orthodox Christians believe and hold to these truths about God the Son.
    Last edited by Chlodovech; Wednesday, June 3rd, 2009 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Make use of the standard font, please :)

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    ... who looked like he was separated at birth from either Varg Vikernes or Boche.
    Wait, stop. You say Varg Vikernes is not Boche and Boche is not Jesus Christ in a reborn, heathen form? By holy Svartr how can you...blasphemy!


    "Judge of your natural character by what you do in your dreams" - Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    I believe Jesus was a common man and a preacher, but certainly no deity with supernatural powers and miracle maker.


    Die Sonne scheint noch.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    Wait, stop. You say Varg Vikernes is not Boche and Boche is not Jesus Christ in a reborn, heathen form? By holy Svartr how can you...blasphemy!

    Well, essentially I was just thinking and tried to humorously bring across --- the portrayal of Jesus is always so über-European, the depictions we see are a European ideal.

    Jesus was a Jew. He would also likely have had short hair. To have somewhat longer hair was a characteristic of the Roman upper classes, not the lower-class provincials. He seems to have lived a rough-enough life as well, yet doesn't look any inch his 36 years.

    Yet he oft looks like a Germanic in depictions and even contemporary renditions in culture, could almost be mistaken for Balder in some art, young and clearly Europeanised.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimsteinr View Post
    I think he attempted to Teach the Jewish Folk a new Way, to Serve their God.
    I don't think it was ever meant to be a Universal religion. I think it was meant fo the Jews. He never Taught or Preached or Prophesied to the Gentiles or non-Jews. Paul took "his Version" of the message of Jesus to the Gentiles and ultimately, the World. But I think Paul corrupted the Message the Jesus gave his People, his Folk.
    I think Jesus was a Great Teacher to the Jews.
    For more on the distinction between the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul, check out the Atheists for Jesus website. (You might start with the About AFJ page....)

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Koos View Post
    Holy Scriptures teaches, the early ecumenical councils affirm, and we fervently believe and have experience the reality that Jesus the Christ is fully God and fully man. As the ancient Nicean Creed declares: He is "light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father".

    All orthodox Christians believe and hold to these truths about God the Son.
    At this point in history, that's an exercise in circular reasoning. It would be more accurate to say that all the Christians that hold to those creeds have declared that they are the "true" or "orthodox" Christians and that all others are heretics.

    This is from a Bolingbroke quote on the About AFJ page:

    "It is time to speak of the articles of faith commonly claimed by Christianity. It is this issue that has furnished all matter of strife, contention, and uncharitableness, from the apostolic age to this very day. It is this that has added another motive, and one that is stronger than any other, to animosity and hatred, to wars and massacres, and to that cruel principle which was never known until Christians introduced it into the world. That being the persecution for opinions, for opinions often of the most abstract speculation, and of the least importance to civil or religious interests. It is this, in short, whose effects have been so fatal to the peace and happiness of mankind, that nothing which the enemies of religion can say on the subject will be exaggerated beyond the truth. But still the charge they bring will be unjustly brought. These effects have not been caused by the gospel, but by the system raised upon it. Not by the revelations of God, but by the inventions of men. The gospel of Christ is one thing, the gospel of St. Paul, and of all those who have grafted after him on the same stock, is another."

    I think Beecher also had a pretty good quote to the effect that heresy is whatever the majority says it is, but I don't have it handy.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Löwenherz View Post
    For more on the distinction between the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul, check out the Atheists for Jesus website. (You might start with the About AFJ page....)


    At this point in history, that's an exercise in circular reasoning. It would be more accurate to say that all the Christians that hold to those creeds have declared that they are the "true" or "orthodox" Christians and that all others are heretics.

    This is from a Bolingbroke quote on the About AFJ page:

    "It is time to speak of the articles of faith commonly claimed by Christianity. It is this issue that has furnished all matter of strife, contention, and uncharitableness, from the apostolic age to this very day. It is this that has added another motive, and one that is stronger than any other, to animosity and hatred, to wars and massacres, and to that cruel principle which was never known until Christians introduced it into the world. That being the persecution for opinions, for opinions often of the most abstract speculation, and of the least importance to civil or religious interests. It is this, in short, whose effects have been so fatal to the peace and happiness of mankind, that nothing which the enemies of religion can say on the subject will be exaggerated beyond the truth. But still the charge they bring will be unjustly brought. These effects have not been caused by the gospel, but by the system raised upon it. Not by the revelations of God, but by the inventions of men. The gospel of Christ is one thing, the gospel of St. Paul, and of all those who have grafted after him on the same stock, is another."

    I think Beecher also had a pretty good quote to the effect that heresy is whatever the majority says it is, but I don't have it handy.
    "At this point in history, that's an exercise in circular reasoning. It would be more accurate to say that all the Christians that hold to those creeds have declared that they are the "true" or "orthodox" Christians and that all others are heretics."

    Expressed like a true product of post-modernity (it's all about us and it's all happening now). The "point in history" during which the major absolutes of the Christian faith [a.k.a. dogmas] were articulated and codified were, rather, periods when the councils met.

    If you are hinting that our beliefs are not and never have been relative and thereby easily inclusive and thus comfy-cozy, you are correct. The first great heretic, Arius, taught against the deity of Jesus Christ. Afterwards there were heretics who insisted that Christ wasn't truly and fully human. Heresies keep getting recycled, and the Orthodox Church keeps tossing them back in the trashcan where they belong.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Koos
    The first great heretic, Arius, taught against the deity of Jesus Christ. Afterwards there were heretics who insisted that Christ wasn't truly and fully human. Heresies keep getting recycled, and the Orthodox Church keeps tossing them back in the trashcan where they belong.
    Arius was banned by Constantine by will of his opposition and got later rehabilitated by Constantine too, while banning the opposition, because Constantine realised that it was pure human intrigue which caused the blame of heresy and thus attempting to make an opinion, an interpretation of completely inconsistent writings, liable for prosecution.

    And with tossing back into the trashcan you mean it is acceptable that people, humans, who are said to be loved by Jesus, get killed for their opinions?
    Ein Leben ist nichts, deine Sprosse sind alles
    Aller Sturm nimmt nichts, weil dein Wurzelgriff zu stark ist
    und endet meine Frist, weiss ich dass du noch da bist
    Gefürchtet von der Zeit, mein Baum, mein Stamm in Ewigkeit

    my signature

  9. #29
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    Yeah, what velvet said. Papa K, you and I can go a few rounds if you want, but I don't think anything useful is going to come of it. We're arguing definitions, which are, by definition, axiomatic. You choose yours and I'll choose mine.

    My working definition of "Christian" is "someone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ", that is, someone who tries to apply the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth to his or her day-to-day life. Your working definition of "Christian" appears to be "someone who submits his belief system to the creeds of the Roman church". Okay, so be it.

    I thought the AFJ site had a useful discussion of the way the Roman church turned the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus....

    Just to highlight the difference: Papa, wouldn't you say that "orthodox Christian" is redundant? Do you really believe there is any such thing as a "Christian" who isn't "orthodox" (according to your definition of orthodoxy, that is, conforming to Roman creeds)?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by velvet View Post
    Arius was banned by Constantine by will of his opposition and got later rehabilitated by Constantine too, while banning the opposition, because Constantine realised that it was pure human intrigue which caused the blame of heresy and thus attempting to make an opinion, an interpretation of completely inconsistent writings, liable for prosecution.

    And with tossing back into the trashcan you mean it is acceptable that people, humans, who are said to be loved by Jesus, get killed for their opinions?
    And with tossing back into the trashcan you mean it is acceptable that people, humans, who are said to be loved by Jesus, get killed for their opinions?

    Actually God killed Arius in a public toilet. Arius was on his way to the second ecumenical council and stopped by the restroom because he really had to go. Boy did he ever! He died in there, but I won't go into the gory details.

    We Orthodox aren't in the business of murdering folks who disagree with us (unlike medieval Roman Catholics and their Reforming off-spring).

    Quote Originally Posted by Löwenherz View Post
    Yeah, what velvet said. Papa K, you and I can go a few rounds if you want, but I don't think anything useful is going to come of it. We're arguing definitions, which are, by definition, axiomatic. You choose yours and I'll choose mine.

    My working definition of "Christian" is "someone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ", that is, someone who tries to apply the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth to his or her day-to-day life. Your working definition of "Christian" appears to be "someone who submits his belief system to the creeds of the Roman church". Okay, so be it.

    I thought the AFJ site had a useful discussion of the way the Roman church turned the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus....

    Just to highlight the difference: Papa, wouldn't you say that "orthodox Christian" is redundant? Do you really believe there is any such thing as a "Christian" who isn't "orthodox" (according to your definition of orthodoxy, that is, conforming to Roman creeds)?
    A slight (perhaps nit-picking) correction. We Orthodox cotton to only the first seven ecumenical councils and the creed developed at the first two councils wasn't/isn't called the "Roman" creed. The Roman bishop by the way agreed with it, but then centuries later at a small non-ecumenical council in Spain the RCs changed the creed (naughty naughty).

    This is a good and worthwhile point. There are definitely (little "o") orthodox Christians outside the ancient Church. We (big "o") Orthodox haven't the right to declare where the church is not, but we are certain about where She is. The semantics that exist after two millenia of schisms, false unions, and splinterings have necessitated our referring to ourselves as "Eastern Orthodox" or "Orthodox Christians". We are also catholic but we don't want to confuse the soup even more so we leave that term for our Latin brethren.

    By the way I truly do love my Catholic and Protestant brothers & sisters. My own dear mother is a Roman Catholic as is my oldest son, and most of my siblings are Evangelicals (who are quite nervous about my kissing icons, making the sign of the cross, loving the Mother of God, and asking "dead" Saints to pray for me or situations...but oh well, we gotta go with the light we have, right?)

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