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Thread: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

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    Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    Map



    Source of data and population codes. Haplogroups P*(xR1a), R1a, DE, G2, I, J2a1, J2*(xJ2a1), J*(xJ2) were used in this analysis.

    Conclusions

    Average distance between Greece and Italy: 3.67% ~ 4.07%

    Average distance between Greek groups (Islands vs Continent): 1.22 %

    Average distance between Italian groups(North vs South): 8.15 %
    Source

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    Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated
    by drift and founder effects

    F. Di Giacomo,a F. Luca,b N. Anagnou,c,d G. Ciavarella,e R.M. Corbo,f M. Cresta,f
    F. Cucci,g L. Di Stasi,h V. Agostiano,i M. Giparaki,j A. Loutradis,j C. Mammi,k
    E.N. Michalodimitrakis,c F. Papola,l G. Pedicini,m E. Plata,j L. Terrenato,a S. Tofanelli,n
    P. Malaspina,a and A. Novellettob,*

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    This confirms that Southern Italians are closer to Greeks (not strange they descend from the Greeks of Magna Grecia) while Northern Italians would have a higher Western European influence, North Italy was once called Cisalpine Gaul, so it must not be a surprise either. But this results do not confirm there's a significant genetic distance between North and South Italians, as many "Padanians" pretend to show.

    I think that things like this happen in most European countries, I mean, a French from Languedoc will be genetically closer to a Spaniard from Catalonia, than to a French from Ile-de-France, or a German from West Weser-Erms will be closer to a Dutch from Gelderland, than to a German from Niederbayern.

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    I agree, globally in time it would be true I think that peoples living next to eachother would mix genetical material, and for a lot of parts of Europe this goes up very well.

    But I also don't want to think to light on elements which may cause the opposite (no mixing) like:
    1. Natural barrieres: e.g. Mountain ranges, open seas, etc.
    2. Linguistic barrieres: complete different languages would cause less communication and therefore les mixing.
    3. Cultural barrieres: if neighbouring cultures differ to much it would be unlikely that their would be intermarrying, especially seen from the fact that most people consider (unconcious or conscious) their culture superior and therefore others less.


    Sidenote on culture: if they where also of different physical appaerance it would even more work against mixing, since elements like discrimination would give a negative pressure from the community towards those who do marry outside their community/people/tribe/ etc..

    In the case of Italy it would be probably more caused by the 'culture' option, The same counts for countries like Belgium (divided by language and subculture) and probably also for the countries who formerly belonged to Yugoslavia or are situated around them.

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    This confirms that Southern Italians are closer to Greeks (not strange they descend from the Greeks of Magna Grecia) while Northern Italians would have a higher Western European influence, North Italy was once called Cisalpine Gaul, so it must not be a surprise either. But this results do not confirm there's a significant genetic distance between North and South Italians, as many "Padanians" pretend to show.
    If this is not a significant distance, I don't know any other word to use.
    Scientific analisys pointed out so far that genetic set-up of Italy hasn't been subjected to any notable change since pre-roman age.

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by dazed&confused
    If this is not a significant distance, I don't know any other word to use.
    Scientific analisys pointed out so far that genetic set-up of Italy hasn't been subjected to any notable change since pre-roman age.
    That's right, so what I mean is that, Greek influence can't be denied in the South, and Celto-Longobard influence can't be denied in the North, but the bulk of the population in both places descends from Stone Age settlers, about 60% from Paleolithic settlers and the rest from Neolithic ones.

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaico
    That's right, so what I mean is that, Greek influence can't be denied in the South, and Celto-Longobard influence can't be denied in the North, but the bulk of the population in both places descends from Stone Age settlers, about 60% from Paleolithic settlers and the rest from Neolithic ones.
    I am not so sure like you about this 60% of Paleolithic gene pool as the Indo-European settlement was really important in terms of numbers and populations.
    I think that the most consistent part of the Northern/Southern Italians genepool is Indo-European, with the notable exception of Sardinians that, thanx to their isolation, have a pretty significative Paleolithic substratus.
    Then the Celts invaded the Northern plains while in the South we had a Greek colonisation and history goes on...

    "E tutti si scandalizzano quando sentono dire: quel tale tipo di mammifero o di uccello ormai è sparito dalla faccia della terra, non lo vedremo più; è una grave perdita. Certo, si tratta di gravissime perdite.
    Ma non sarebbe forse più grave se sparisse una comunità umana?? --Bruno Salvadori

    Seven pictures of northern European males and seven pictures of northern African males were presented randomly via a computer screen to 82 Italian female undergraduates of the University of Padua, Italy.
    Each picture depicted a full frontal face with a neutral facial expression. Participants were asked to classify each picture as either northern Italian or southern Italian.
    On average, the seven pictures depicting northern Europeans were classified as northern Italians 81% of the time. The seven pictures depicting northern Africans were classified as southern Italians 83%
    of the time.



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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gesta Bellica
    I am not so sure like you about this 60% of Paleolithic gene pool as the Indo-European settlement was really important in terms of numbers and populations.
    I think that the most consistent part of the Northern/Southern Italians genepool is Indo-European, with the notable exception of Sardinians that, thanx to their isolation, have a pretty significative Paleolithic substratus.
    Then the Celts invaded the Northern plains while in the South we had a Greek colonisation and history goes on...
    Indo-European is more a linguistic and cultural term than a racial one. In origin Indo-Europeans descended from the Paleolithic East European settlers who carried the R1a haplotype, but after they invaded other European people and were invaded by other Europeans they mixed up with the other Paleolithic European populations (which were already closely related to them, especially R1a and R1b), so finally Indo-European invaders carried the R1a, R1b, and I haplotypes, which are the Paleolithic European ones.

    Anyway Indo-European invasions in Europe were done by very few people (in many cases not more than 1% of the population) who became the elite of the dominated people, but racially and genetically invaders and invaded were all the same.

    In Italy, according to the Y Chromosome haplotypes the genetic origins are:
    R1b (West Paleo-European): ~45%
    I (Paleo-Balkano-Nordic): ~15%
    R1a (East Paleo-European "Aryan"): ~1%
    E3b (North African Neolithic): ~20%
    J (Middle East Neolithic): ~12%
    K (Middle East Neolithic): ~7%

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    Re: Greece and Italy Y-chromosome Analysis

    Ha, I was right all along. Apparently the Sicilians aren't Italian, but rather Greek. I do have one question though, when getting data from southern Italy and Sicily, were samples taken from the Greek colonies within the areas? I know that the Greeks had settled there and that their ancestors still speak in an ancient Greek dialect. This population could mess with the results.

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