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Thread: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brigid
    I do believe that those who are intelligent, creative and free-thinking will be less likely to conform and more likely to have views that question the generalizations and stereotypes. IMO it is most important of all to question the righteousness of our own perceptions.... how else will we grow?
    There are different types of intelligence. It is easy to think that people who think the same as 'you' are more "intelligent". Conforming to traditional gender/family roles is is generally thought of as the ultimate stereotype to rebel against. If alot of people have done it before it must be wrong. I used to be a rebel of that sort but I found that it was empty and rejected so much greatness. I am now the ultimate rebel: a traditional woman! (well, in alot of ways;-) This both disturbs some people on the surface but draws people on a deep level. The fact that a woman can be feminine and very powerful seems to be a new concept to most of them. They have fallen for the self hating feminist propaganda that everything "feminine" is weak and a woman can only be powerful by acting like a man (the negative stereotype of masculine mostly) , having lots of sex, being distant from family, never depending on anyone, and/or wielding a weapon. It is all a true sign of fear and weakness. It is stronger to take on the responsibility and the permanent bonds that commitment and family entails. But that means putting aside one's personal agenda and thinking of the greater good -the real greater good not the ego driven drivel to save the most distant unworthy rather than one's own worthy kin.
    The human ability to think can be it's greatest enemy. Those who have the ability to think often scramble so hard not to act like the "stupid" people that they reject all that is natural. They somehow think they are not subject to natural laws any longer. The mind is an amazing organ that can build the most fantastic fairy tales and in this world where so many people can avoid doing natural work that would remind them of natures truth people tend to believe the fiction. The reality of what 'we' are doing to this plant/ourselves is a hard thing to face without despairing. Questioning everything has gone from a healthy insight to a destructive addiction.

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    I may join more in this thread in the future, I am a bit brain dead lately, but can I tell you about this wonderful place where I live in America that is unlike everywhere else? Many of these women here (european-american women) have 4 kids, stay at home, are well educated, have husbands with very well paying jobs, etc. Obviously, they are very unlike what we see going on around us in other areas. Some of these women homeschool also, and some who don't work at their kids school. These are all wonderful people in this little ideal place where I live. Actually, most of these women do not live in my same city, but in a neighboring city. I wish it was like this everywhere!
    "I do not know what horrified me most at that time: the economic misery of my companions, their moral and ethical coarseness, or the low level of their intellectual development." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

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    Thumbs Up Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    a traditional woman...... both disturbs some people on the surface but draws people on a deep level. The fact that a woman can be feminine and very powerful seems to be a new concept to most of them. They have fallen for the self hating feminist propaganda that everything "feminine" is weak and a woman can only be powerful by acting like a man (the negative stereotype of masculine mostly) , having lots of sex, being distant from family, never depending on anyone, and/or wielding a weapon.
    Yes, yes yes! I couldn't agree more. If people want to see true feminine power they need look no further than a mother whose child is threatened with danger. See her morph into a LIONESS then! I was watching a show the other day in which a child was charged by a bear in the forest, her mother was standing nearby and without a thought threw herself into the path of the bear to save her daughter. The mother was mauled to death. As I watched this, I knew that without a doubt, that I too would lay down my life and suffer great pain for the well-being of my children.

    Women have great power to protect, create and nurture. Great intuition and instincts. It's such a pity that women have been encouraged, or even brainwashed, into denying our power. At the same time, the great power of men to protect, create and nurture has been denied and criticised also.

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    Good points Brigid, but this needs explanation:
    You almost sound as though you think that sort of personality structure is admirable.(??) The sort of INFLEXIBILTY and selfishness that would drive a woman to have an abortion just because having a baby doesn't fit in with her plans is not mother material, IMO. Probably better that a woman like that doesn't become a Mum.
    Well, it depends on the arguments they have. But what I dont appreciate are those women which say they are against abortion in ANY CASE even if the child would starve, would have a serious defect or be the result of rape etc. That religious or emotional irrationalism and not compatible with rational Idealism which is the highest form of moral and the most promising and desirable one for developed humans. Obviously if a women is just indifferent and unemotional, egoistic and mislead, thats something different. For them the hard decision would be to get the child and not to abort it, whereas for some rational women the contrary might be true as well in some situations and those, ready to follow a plan and acting rational are what I admire and see as generally positive. The main problem with them is that their plan is the result of indoctrination, manipulation and corruption - their main weakness, because otherwise they are often very high-level.

    In general I'm against abortions with the typical exceptions (defects, extreme situations etc.) and it depends on the decision-making process whether I can see something positive in a woman's decision to abort or not. In most cases I hear just bad excuses nowadays. I mean hey, what would have the mothers of the past said to this material conditions and women which say "its a bad time for a child": If all people would have thought that way in the past, there would be no humans left anway!
    What I often wonder is how irrational people are if they want late abortions, because then they have to give birth to the (then dead) child anyway and nowadays its possible to give a child free to adoption...I always wonder about how irrational humans can even kill their own healthy children (even evolved personalities!) just because of a stress situation...I mean they could give them to the state-adoption and they would raise their own blood. In most societies that wouldnt have been the case to same extend since most groups cared rather for the own children first and to care for "foreign" ones is nothing natural. But they just destroy their own future in a mindless state...
    Thats most striking contrast to what I mean with rational, planned behaviour and rational Idealism...

    -the real greater good not the ego driven drivel to save the most distant unworthy rather than one's own worthy kin.
    The human ability to think can be it's greatest enemy. Those who have the ability to think often scramble so hard not to act like the "stupid" people that they reject all that is natural. They somehow think they are not subject to natural laws any longer. The mind is an amazing organ that can build the most fantastic fairy tales and in this world where so many people can avoid doing natural work that would remind them of natures truth people tend to believe the fiction. The reality of what 'we' are doing to this plant/ourselves is a hard thing to face without despairing. Questioning everything has gone from a healthy insight to a destructive addiction.
    Exactly! Can just agree. Some of this naive people want to believe that they are out of natural structures, "something just cultural", they even forget how they came into life oftentimes and are highly disrespectful if its about women which see their priority in family, man and children.

    Actually, most of these women do not live in my same city, but in a neighboring city. I wish it was like this everywhere!
    That affirms to me the point about the nuclear family and social organisation. People need effective social networks of similar-same minded people. I can see that in traditional groups (like Turks from Anatolia) working better than in Europeans usually - thats in fact one of the few things which really work better for them. They have an own male and female culture with their own respective networks to talk with each other, sharing, helping etc. more than Euro-mothers which are often alone at home and moan about not enough social contacts, respect and help, in fact, to me, it seems even more often than this Islamic women what says a lot.
    Its not the male job to fully substitute a whole extended family and female bonds, thats unnatural and not even possible in all cases. Once the policy and culture would be changed, there would be more women living that way too and more social networks of similar minded and locally organised groups could be made up. But so its really oftentimes no help to have such networks but can be even more stress and duties (bad time management, time loss because of the distance, problematic line of communication too in many cases) if the other woman lives at the other end of a city or even further away...
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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    I agree with your stance on abortion Agrippa.

    That affirms to me the point about the nuclear family and social organisation. People need effective social networks of similar-same minded people. I can see that in traditional groups (like Turks from Anatolia) working better than in Europeans usually - thats in fact one of the few things which really work better for them. They have an own male and female culture with their own respective networks to talk with each other, sharing, helping etc. more than Euro-mothers which are often alone at home and moan about not enough social contacts, respect and help, in fact, to me, it seems even more often than this Islamic women what says a lot.
    Its not the male job to fully substitute a whole extended family and female bonds, thats unnatural and not even possible in all cases. Once the policy and culture would be changed, there would be more women living that way too and more social networks of similar minded and locally organised groups could be made up. But so its really oftentimes no help to have such networks but can be even more stress and duties (bad time management, time loss because of the distance, problematic line of communication too in many cases) if the other woman lives at the other end of a city or even further away...
    You understand the plight of Mums, in particular "stay at home Mums" very well. It frustrates me when some in society (not you Agrippa) blame low fertility rates on women alone (implying that women are selfish, indifferent to family or lazy etc).... the blame largely lays in the lap of our "westernised" culture and in the modern structuring of our communities. Those of us who do choose to make a "career" of being a mother, wife and home-maker are often mocked, condescended and thought of as unambitious, unintelligent and passive.

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    Those of us who do choose to make a "career" of being a mother, wife and home-maker are often mocked, condescended and thought of as unambitious, unintelligent and passive.
    Thats the propagated picture and since its ominpresent, at least in the German society, it has an influence - more intelligent women dont want to lose status or to be seen in the same way, therefore they are reluctant if its about children even if they originally, in early age or even later, wanted to have a larger family.

    In that sense its a "self-fulfilling" prophecy, with more women of lower niveau having more children on average and the main victim of that propaganda are those women which really wanted, planned children and family, those which are the really responsible ones. Therefore they are those which might suffer most and are in fact the group of women which is today discriminated most in the current Western societies - varying degrees, worst in Germany probably, but you can see the same basic pattern being quite widespread and certain (partly true unfortunately) stereotypes being widespread especially in the better educated and rather leftist or liberal oriented womanhood.

    What mothers should really do is to be the opposite of what they are shown in the media, namely active - they should organise themselves and fight for the rights of mothers, families and children in a more and more only profit based and corrupted society. The united and collective base and conscience of the living society, which know their value and propagate their interests and position.
    Furthermore I wouldnt say that women can't work if they are good mothers, but it depends on various factors if it makes sense or not. F.e. there are women in Europe which work mainly for the Kindergarten! I mean they have a job just "for working", the money is just enough to pay what they need for children because of their job and thats pretty sad and in many cases even stupid. Because I always wonder how a woman can have more "self-realisation" if working in the supermarket and having a pet than if having children, a family and good social network - but it seems the later is, as I tried already to explain, very difficult to get for a mother without a job sometimes. Concerning the "self-realisation" again, there are really fantastic jobs which can be very fascinating, but a) thats a minority, works which are really so important that the woman is really irreplaceable but that must not be an argument against children neither.
    And in those jobs in which they are easily replaceable, the children and family should have the no. 1 priority in any case and "to throw women on the job-market" is neither in the interest of the group as a whole nor from a social standpoint. Just think about a man and woman, both working, high income, no time for children, another family, man and woman jobless, no money, low income - obviously the first fall out as "reproducers" and the second are just a "social case" - both is not better than - if not enough jobs are there, the males would work alone. So it depends on the jobmarket situation too whether women should be encouraged to work, since its in many situations better - at least half-day jobs for women than more non-integrable immigrants f.e. On the other hand to just lower both wages, social structures and birth rates makes not sense, even classical Socialists followed that logic, it was the influence of later Wester Communism, Feminism and Liberalism which thought of women being second class males rather than something on their own and "equal rights" being only possible if they become males and males on the other hand feminised weaklings - the death of the white male in mixture and a "genderless society" seems to be the ideal of those which propagate this anti-European madness.

    Finally women as well as men are just individuals which follow in most cases the paths which they can see and feel that it is good for themselves - status, material blabla...
    So its not enough just to mock, but we must change the framework, and to change the framework has to mean to change the current Western Liberal societies - there is no other way and change, even hard change is necessary if we want to see Europeans and occidental culture being alive in some generations from now. Small places with "successful development" inside the ill system want change nothing if they are not the role model for others since even small enclaves won't stand a chance on the long run - we must face this reality and that there is from this standpoint no "ideal world" at the moment since the whole West is sick and weak - needs a therapy as soon as possible.
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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    I like your posts Agrippa, because you dare to say to me what so many wouldn't. I've got to hand it to you, although I'm sure its not your intention, your sentiments do put a bit of fire in my belly. LOL In fact, right now I feel like clobbering you over the head! LOL (I'm joking!)

    There are still so many falsehoods that I believe you to for granted as being true to base your views on. Of course, we all know there is actually no truth at all, only subjective perceptions of it.

    You say that intelligent women don't want to lose status.... but don't you see that status seeking and intelligence aren't related? I think that your views must be as a result of growing up in German culture, with German values. In Australia, people tend to value "the battler", and I assume from your posts that in Germany people tend to favour the "yuppie". A "battler" is someone who has come out on top despite suffering many hardships - and coming out on top doesn't mean having great monetary wealth nor succeeding to a higher socio-economic status. It means, in Australia, being hard-working, honest, with a good work ethic and being HAPPY and CONTENT with one's lot in life. Being able to suffer hardships and not be worse off for it. In this world of sink or swim, the battler will always swim. Yuppies are weak I believe, because one gets the impression that they would crumble if they were to ever experience great adversity. I grew up in rural Australia where the biggest insult one can receive is to be called a "snob". In Germany perhaps the greatest insult would be to be called "poor"?

    And you said that I have painted a "propagated" picture of motherhood.... but you're forgetting that I AM a mother, and the offensiveness of these social perceptions of motherhood is not just a myth, they are often my reality. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, "you don't LOOK like a mother of 3", as if mothers of 3 are supposed to be over-weight and dowdy or something..... or how many people have looked down their noses at me when I state that I'm a stay at home mum. But I am strong, and live by my convictions. I will not succumb to pressure of others.

    I still don't get how you can equate conforming with intelligence.

    And I resent your implication that all one-income families must be financially struggling. In Germany maybe its the case. But where I live, many women are SAHMs and our husbands are good enough providers to ensure that we can do OUR jobs, which is looking after our families and our homes.

    I don't think that you can appreciate just HOW difficult it is to be a parent, to organise and run a household..... when every day you have to do about 5 different jobs at one time.... and its 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no break. Mothers bodies are torn apart, our self-images radically altered and all of our time and evergy goes into our children. Its EXHAUSTING work and its a juggling act. But until you've experienced the love that having a family brings you also can't understand why its all worth it.

    And IMO self-realisation of the mother doesn't even figure into it.... children come first. An intelligent woman will be able to "self-realise" within the traditional, conservative role of "mother". Working Mums are shirking their responsibilities. And husbands who can't adequately provide financial support for their families, meaning that their wives must work, are not living up to their responsibilities either.
    Last edited by Brigid; Saturday, February 11th, 2006 at 02:41 AM.

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    You say that intelligent women don't want to lose status.... but don't you see that status seeking and intelligence aren't related?
    Erm, finally everbody wants to be respected, getting compliments and acceptance. Whether you search for it in one field or another, thats a question of personality and not just intelligence. Probably the non-intelligence-related psychic traits are much more important than anything else. So, right.
    But again those which search "beside the mainstream" of the well educated and intelligent spectrum are finally a minority. They might even be the better people under those with savvy, in fact I think so, but they are a minority and its not just in their genes but a question of how they were raised up. Thats what I meant with socio-cultural framework. Those which I meant (I have specific types of women and men in mind), would just change their view on children and family if it would be at least no loss, at best a personal asset to get both and to care for both.

    For the rest, well, thats my personal observation and opinion and might not reflect the views of the German majority, but whats true is that they might be on average, especially in the urban areas, more job-, career- and money oriented. Thats a drain of blood which is lost their - because many good variants get lost in this "battle for profit, career and status" nowadays. F.e. the same wouldnt have been the case in the Iron Age, it wouldnt have been as worse in the Middle Ages, though worse enough, was quite bad in the 1950's, and is an absolute catastrophy now

    In Germany perhaps the greatest insult would be to be called "poor"?
    No, no, in fact many Germans would prefer what you call "battler", the decent guys and girls, but in the heavily Americanised urban areas, things are different and emancipation had even worse results if its about the attitude of women towards sexuality, children and family in Germany me thinks than elsewhere. Much more destructive. In other countries this awful Neo-Marxist and Liberal Feminist theories are present too and do enough harm, but here in German its even worse and people hate traditions, values and finally their own folk too often, especially the better educated since: Longer in school - longer indoctrination - they know better whats "in" and "out" from the perspective of the higher mainstream, current structures and establishment and identify with this naive "values" which make it easier to conform.

    And you said that I have painted a "propagated" picture of motherhood.... but you're forgetting that I AM a mother, and the offensiveness of these social perceptions of motherhood are not just a myth, they are often my reality. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, "you don't LOOK like a mother of 3", as if mothers of 3 are supposed to be over-weight and dowdy or something..... or how many people have looked down their noses at me when I state that I'm a stay at home mum. But I am strong, and live by my convictions. I will not succumb to pressure of others.
    You must understand that I really appreciate what you say, do and stand for, thats just great!

    But you should read again what I wrote in the other posts, its the average "white woman" pictured in the media and as it is really there with more than 2 children which is more often related to generally negative traits. You said it yourself. Propaganda constructed it, people believe in it, those who can and understood followed it to a large degree = negative selection.

    I still don't get how you can equate conforming with intelligence.
    I will compare it with dogs Mainly because if thinking about them, people might be less emotional and have more distance but will still understand what it is about:
    There are dogs which can understand instructions, will follow, will have success, they are intelligent.
    Then there are dogs which didnt understood or are just unable to follow instructions, they are just stupid.
    3rd group are those which understood the instructions, would be largely able to follow, would have success, but decide whether they follow the instructions from case to case. They have the strongest will and are for a society usually the greatest blessing and curse at the same time. Why? Because they can be awfully wrong or absolutely right and might show the whole group new ways. In any case they are outsiders.
    Thats the position in which many "good mothers" of the higher level are now in Germany, they dont belong to the "typical large family" people, which are, as a matter of fact, nowadays rather a negative selection of society, nor do they just obey and follow the mainstream - again thats rather a question of personality traits and socialisation than intelligence, therefore many intelligent people, as well as dumb ones, follow just the path others showed them. Finally everybody does, but minor differences can make the difference "in detail" and this "details" inside the normal spectrum can be quite important as we see.

    And I resent your implication that all one-income families must be financially struggling. In Germany maybe its the case. But where I live, many women are SAHMs and our husbands are good enough providers to ensure that we can do OUR jobs and look after our families and our homes.
    Thats great. You are still in a rural area aren't you?

    I don't think that you can appreciate just HOW difficult it is to be a parent, to organise and run a household..... when every day you have to do about 5 different jobs at one time.... and its 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, with no break. Mothers bodies are torn apart, our self-images radically altered and all of our time and evergy goes into our children. Its EXHAUSTING work and its a juggling act. But until you've experienced the love that having a family brings you also can't understand why its all worth it.
    Again
    The good news is that we have modern technologies which helps alot, if comparing what farmer's wife's had to do in the past, many people of today would just ask: "How was that possible?" Since they had to work at home, with the children and for relatives, no technology and finally some basic works on the farm as well. That was a life as hard as most people can't imagine nowadays - expectation of life was much lower for women - no surprise. On the other hand the relatives helped with the children (grandmother, mother in law f.e.) and with more children the older ones could help too. That was an extended family which doesnt exist too often any more - at least a limited one since, as I said, the real "traditional" Indoeuropean family was destroyed by Feudalism and Christianity latest about 1000 A.D. in Western Europe.

    Problem is that nowadays most women dont want to be responsible for something which they can't just change like they want, thats the "Individualism Ideology" and the Liberal life concepts. So they prefer job before children and partly because of a bad conscience and their own suppression they have to rant against those which chose another way.

    Its funny that women which speak about "tolerance" and "integration" all the time get even angry and aggressive in Germany if a women just says: "I want to stay at home for my children and family", or "my children and my mate are my no. 1 priority". Thats because this is a crime against radical emancipation and a "bad role model" for the ideologists, and "an insult" and "attack" for those with a bad consciousness as "incomplete women" because of their childlessness. "Self-realisation of the individual" has to be no. 1 priority, no matter what, to question that is heretic.

    On the other hand there are some women which say they smoke "because the child will be smaller and birth easier", thats really true, such stupid women exist. I heard it myself from various sources (one worked with pregnant women) and saw one on TV once. I mean that are the "2 extremes" I see especially in urbanised areas in Germany quite often. Don't know if its that bad elsewhere...they exist everywhere now (Global Americanisation) and some people would just be like that no matter what, but I think those tendencies are stronger in German speaking societies now...

    And IMO self-realisation of the mother doesn't even figure into it.... children come first.
    That should be the case, yes.

    Working Mums are shirking their responsibilities. And husbands who can't adequately provide financial support for their families, meaning that their wives must work, are not living up to their responsibilities either.
    I can agree with all what you said, but the last depends on the situation, you can't generalise it. And its very important for children to have contacts to other individuals of about the same age outside of the family too. Thats partly problematic because of our negative environment, but there is in fact no real alternative. Therefore from a certain age on, they can go into Kindergarten, School, be around with other children under the supervision of another mother, grandmother can be there etc., so if there is a real need for work power, both because of the financial situation of the family or because of the situation of the larger group (not enough workers, otherwise immigration f.e.), women could do a job and in fact should in very critical situations (f.e. war). I know that can have very negative effects, but there are situations in which its inevitable.
    And I dont think half-day work must be that problematic, but full-day is indeed problematic usually, especially if there are no other relatives (especially grandmother) around. I'm always thinking about the development of the child while saying that.
    However, in an ideal case wage work outside of the home should be avoided and the women should work for the local community more, rather than anything else. F.e. half-day social work in the area or political organisation, help for other mothers, common activities with the local social network etc., but again, thats not really possible now always and everywhere, would be a political goal for me to install such structures. So women can have family and children, the centre of their life, but would also have a fix social network and help if necessary, or they can help others themselves if they are able to. F.e. little babies, no grandmother around, one mother could help the other if necessary and watch for the children if there are things to do etc...I mean its often about such small things which can cause serious troubles for a young couple especially in the urban areas.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Saturday, February 11th, 2006 at 03:31 AM.
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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    There are dogs which can understand instructions, will follow, will have success, they are intelligent.
    Then there dogs which didnt understood or are just unable to follow instructions, they are just stupid.
    3rd groups are those which understood the instructions, would be largely able to follow, would have success, but decide whether they follow the instructiosn from case to case. They have the strongest will and are for a society usually the greatest blessing and curse at the same time. Why? Because they can be awfully wrong or absolutely right and might show the whole group new ways. In any case they are outsiders.
    The first group of intelligent dogs will only be as successful as their masters are. In which case, a truly intelligent dog would be able to assess the righteousness of their master and then determine for themselves the right course of action. Which would mean that the only truly intelligent group is the 3rd group you've listed.

    As you said they are dangerous because they are the leaders and can be right or wrong.....

    Conclusion? Only those of inferior intelligence will be followers, or conformists.

    The only reason I picked you up on saying that I was citing propaganda, by stating stereotypes surrounding mums is because I thought that you were saying that people don't really have such perceptions of motherhood.... on reflection I realise that I momentarily misinterpreted you, sorry! I do agree with you on this one.

    Quote:
    And I resent your implication that all one-income families must be financially struggling. In Germany maybe its the case. But where I live, many women are SAHMs and our husbands are good enough providers to ensure that we can do OUR jobs and look after our families and our homes.

    Thats great. You are in a rural area aren't you?
    No. I grew up in the country. I've lived in Perth (city) since finishing high school and moving here for uni. (So I've been living in the city for 12 years now. ) The area in which I live is quite affluent.... yet still many mums stay at home, so to speak. However, most mums in this area began having children in their 30's.... I'm a bit of an odd one out as I had my first at the age of 24.... thus having time to ensure financial security before beginning their families.

    Incidentally, do you know the average age for women having their first baby in Germany nowadays? In Australia its now 30.5 yrs of age!

    I agree that modern mums have it RELATIVELY easy tody when it comes to sheer physical labour.... but the social isolation, lack of support and even pressure to be "perfect" and raise "perfect" children is surely a modern ill. We agree on this one. I know what its like to have little support, my family largely still live rurally and my in-laws are all in Ireland.

    some women which say they smoke "because the child will be smaller and birth easier", thats really true, such stupid women exist.
    That is SO APPALLING! Such women are not worthy of motherhood. I think smoking is far more common in European countries than Australia from what I've heard. I personally don't know any mums that smoke - let alone when they're pregnant!

    Perhaps I am a little sheltered? Hhhmmmm.....

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    Re: Western European countries all but devoid of children?

    Which would mean that the only truly intelligent group is the 3rd group you've listed.
    I think rather true individualists, but then again, we could discuss about the definition of intelligence. I know that many people from the 2nd category are excellent in certain areas, even much better than I could ever be. They are experts, work perfect, perfectionists. But they dont think too much beyond their subject of interest - neither do I too much, the main difference is just whats your main interest.
    F.e. a technician and scientist (could be both male or female) which is a luminary in his area might be just fascinated by what he is doing. Very gifted, irreplaceable, very intelligent. But he just doesnt care for other things. That would be the category 2 schizothyme personality type. The zyklothyme 2 personality type would be again very gifted, very active, with a broad view, but very personal, very emotional oriented and so pragmatic, that what is out of his direct sphere of influence which doesnt bother him neither, he just won't care. Thats not his problem, nor will he think about visions or long term plans too much, he's rather concentrated for the moment, doing "whats necessary", what people might await from him or what he thinks might bring him success.
    You can't call that people not intelligent, in fact what they really are is best described as being "indifferent" for things which are out of their direct sight - so if they "dont see right", its the duty of those outsiders, which have critical view "on the whole construct" to correct their misconceptions. But as long as they are not affected directly by negative influences because of this misconceptions, they won't even hear because everything outside of the mainstream is just "bothersome" or "mad". So you have to wait, if you want to change them, for them being the victims of their own misconceptions. Thats why Liberalcapitalism is that hard to overcome, as long as they have al their surrogats and substitutes, see a personal perspective, they won't change themselves even if its clear that their own group will be dead in some generations, whole mankind goes in the wrong direction and very personal: Their own bloodline will die out with them and for what? For a little bit profit and "self-realisation" more in most cases.

    Everbody lives in his own small world and most people's small world is just the copy of a copy which was constructed by both their genetic dispositions and socialisation. Now if others told them "thats the right way", the just won't question it.
    And those who question it might be wrong...

    So we face a real problem on that and lets assume I'm right, it won't change anything as long as the conditions allow the mass to live on "in their small world". F.e. its ok to go into locals in which, though we have a lot of immigration and contraselection, where you practically only German people of a higher level. So for those which are always in that environment, have a job in which they get status, money and acceptance, you can't tell them things are "that bad", because for them they aren't. They live in their bubble and just dont really care for the rest as long as things run good for them. They might be even decent people which think they do the right think because they believe in the Liberal ideology, but they are finally just puppets of the system and they are members of a group which might die out, their bloodline for sure...and thats so bad because if you think about it, some of them might be on a relatively high biological level for thousands of years, how many generations fought for survival, for their offspring, to get them through and to build up communities. And now, though its from the objective standpoint easier than ever - they just dont want to get children - because from the subjective point of view, if looking at the world from their "small perspective", children are just a problem for their existence and not more than that. To change that attitude has to mean to change the system and therefore we have just to work on it.

    Its wrong to give them all the guilt, even if they act wrong, because finally most are just a product of the ill system, in another system they might be puppets too, but at least some which really work for the greater good and with a really fulfilled life, fulfilled because of real achievements, not just surrogats, ideological and Capitalistic-materialistic delusion.

    Perhaps I am a little sheltered? Hhhmmmm.....
    Might be But thats ok, without a shelter people can't be independent anyway. F.e. people of the 2nd category are often more self-dependent too because they just deal with what they have to deal - not too much "waste of time" for things which have no direct use for their next success. I think thats a reason why the current system wants so self-dependent children and mothers away too, so that they are always "small individualists" which are both self-dependent on the one hand and anti-Authoritarian on the other. With the later meaning just parents and traditions, finally they should know what to do, namely working for nothing more than the surrogats and career.
    If you look at the changes in the course of instructions you see what I mean. For the majority "knowledge" becomes less and less important, but "competences" more and more. The difference is the first was classic education, which could lead to independent thought, the later just leads to independent and flexible individuals which function in a modern job environment and might have the illusion of being "so independent and special".

    Incidentally, do you know the average age for women having their first baby in Germany nowadays? In Australia its now 30.5 yrs of age!
    Well, it should be about the same if looking at this graph:
    http://www.bpb.de/wissen/8QIORZ,0,Du..._M%FCtter.html



    It clearly shows how dramatic the development was and is.

    This graph shows how many families have more single childs, 2 childs or more, only 8,6 percent of the families have more than 4 children, and I think foreigners with German citizenship are included, without them (many Muslims), it might be even lower:

    72,2 percent had already in 2000 just one or 2 children, and that are those which have children at all!!!
    That alone shows how uncommon more children are today in Germany and considered the high percentage of foreigners and lowest class people having more children, you can imagine how seldom you see "proper" and higher social families with more than 2 children...unfortunately.

    Divorce rate, breakups and illegitimate children rates are high too, so many single mothers. The lower class single mother with more children (usually just 2-4), but from different men is a German stereotype again. Those mothers are usually under the poor as can be seen in this graph which shows the poverty rates of "family types":



    This insecurity of women, to fall into the poverty class, is no encouragment for more children neither. Couples without a child have the lowest poverty rate, "one child families" and singles follow. All other types of household with children have higher poverty rates obviously. There is state intervention, but still, better educated singles and couples with no or just one children are financially much better off on average and this is again no motivation for many "planning people", especially if they didnt found their "dream boy or girl" to set up a family. Threat of divorce, unhappy relationship, being a single mother, financial problems etc...

    What follows is the birth rate:


    Foreigners are included and some effects might distort the picture, but even if the worst years might be already over, it would still mean that the population is in some areas close to getting halved - especially without counting the foreigners (!).
    Not to speak of the fact that so many high level variants get no children at all and are fully lost forever.
    but the social isolation, lack of support and even pressure to be "perfect" and raise "perfect" children is surely a modern ill. We agree on this one. I know what its like to have little support, my family largely still live rurally and my in-laws are all in Ireland.
    Thats what must be corrected and the solution can't be just child-care for free and everywhere, that might be good for many mothers too, but its not the solution. We must have a "substitution for the extended family" so to say. Its just not possible to keep an extended family in a modern and mobile environment which our people need now, there is no way back. So we have to develop strategies for "better neighborhood", female culture (not to confuse with radical Feminism) and networks as I said. Status should be raised and all what I said above, in this thread and others thread because I can really understand how you might feel sometimes. Again objectively you might be much better away than your ancestors, but only if its about the material and work side, otherwise, in many non-material respects, mothers of today have too much problems and there is a lot of discrimination, to use this word leftists use in all other cases - but not for white mothers of European children...
    That must be faced as all the other problems which make our nations sick and the individuals distressed without reason...sooner or later. A state should care for its people and the good of the whole first and before all.
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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