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Thread: First evidence of Mongol rapes in Poland?

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Post First evidence of Mongol rapes in Poland?

    Apparently so, but this data does deal with blood groups, which are not really used to test racial admixture.

    And all of these markers are found in other European populations too.


    Mongolian admixture in Poland
    Transfus Med. 2003 Jun;13(3):161-3.

    The first example of anti-Diego(b) found in a Polish woman with the Di(a+b-) phenotype and haemolytic disease of the newborn not requiring treatment.

    Lenkiewicz B, Zupanska B.

    All pregnant women with anti-Diegob (anti-Dib) described so far were non-Caucasians. We present the case of a Polish Di(a+b-) woman with anti-Dib, which did not bind complement, was immunoglobulin G3 (IgG3) alone and had very low functional activity. She delivered a Di(a+b+) infant with a positive direct antiglobulin test and the antibody in his serum but very mild haemolytic disease. Both parents of the pregnant woman were Di(a+b+), so were all her three children. The whole family have been living in a small village in southeastern Poland for a long time. The rare Diego phenotypes, found now and previously in Poland, suggest gene admixture introduced as a result of Poland being invaded by Mongolian-background Tatars during the past centuries.

    ...

    This is not the first time that a very rare phenotype of the Diego system was detected in Poland. Amongst 9661 Poles tested, 45 (0·47%) were found to have Di(a+) antigen (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992). Thus, its incidence is much higher than that seen in any other White population tested (Issitt & Anstee, 1998). This observation was attributed to the very probable gene admixture resulting from several military invasions of Poland by Tatars of Mongolian background in the past (Kusnierz-Alejska & Bochenek, 1992); it is known that Di(a+) is mainly found in people from the East (Issitt & Anstee, 1998).

    ...

    The possibility of the influence of people from the East on the frequency of certain antigens in the Polish population is also consistent with our previous observations on the incidence of human platelet antigen (HPA) genotypes. The frequency of HPA-2 and HPA-5 alleles in Poles was similar to that in Far East nations (Drzewek et al., 1998).

    Some observations...

    The study gives a figure of 0.47% for this marker, and from a massive sample too. That's less than the amount of Mongol mtDNA found in Poland, and other parts of Europe too.

    I find the conclusions in this report fairly curious, considering the lack of paternal Y-chromosome Mongol gene markers in Poland. After all, the invaders were men.

    And what about Autosomal DNA in Poland? I have not seen Poles coming much, or any closer, to East Asians than other Europeans in this respect.

    There has always been a view that the large incidence of blood group B in Poland, and eastern Europe, has been as a result of Mongol-Tatar invasions. Everyone says that, Poles as well.

    In fact, it's a very common view in Poland, and given any time there is any hint of any Mongol influence. But when you look at all the genetic data, it doesn't really support it.

    I would also like to ask how reliable blood is as an indicator of racial admixture?

    Because all the markers mentioned in that report are found in other European populations, as I've already said.

    And as far as I remember, blood can be strongly influenced by selective pressures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Because all the markers mentioned in that report are found in other European populations, as I've already said.

    .
    What markers are found in what other European populations? What are you referring to? Poland was the western limit of the extent of the Mongol Empire, as shown in the map I posted before:

    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...ci_KHANmap.gif

    I can't see that this report suggests that the Polish case is representative of all Euro populations. Instead, it seems to indicate that Poland is the exception to the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki
    What markers are found in what other European populations? What are you referring to? Poland was the western limit of the extent of the Mongol Empire, as shown in the map I posted before:

    http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/...ci_KHANmap.gif

    I can't see that this report suggests that the Polish case is representative of all Euro populations. Instead, it seems to indicate that Poland is the exception to the rule.
    Since you're not very informed about history OR geography, I'll have to explain.

    1. If you can find Poland on that map, you'll see it was only less than a third encompassed by the Mongol Empire. The only part being the south-eastern Poland.

    2. Look at periodical maps of the Mongol Empire, and you'll see that it was the largest extent of the empire, which lasted for less than a decade. The map is very inaccurate at that point, showing teritories that were never conquered as part of the empire. Fact is that many of the parts of the world shown on that map were held by mongols for less than a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    Since you're not very informed about history OR geography, I'll have to explain.

    1. If you can find Poland on that map, you'll see it was only less than a third encompassed by the Mongol Empire. The only part being the south-eastern Poland.
    Well seems you're even less informed than I am, since Poland's borders was much different in 1280. Almost half of the current Poland used to be Germany only 50 years ago, mr clever guy. That map shows the current borders of Poland, not the ancient ones.

    I think I know more about geography than you know about speaking English, my friend. At age 6 I already knew all the countries of the world, plus their main cities, and could draw their maps for you out of my memory alone.

    I would encourage you to go buy a historical atlas. That would be of great help.

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    Loki, as much as I'm impressed with you at 6 years, I must say you've lost a lot of IQ since then.

    The scientists did not take samples of DNA on the teritory of Ancient Poland, did they.
    They took samples from within the boundaries of today's poland.

    In 1280. Poland stretched over most of Lithuania and Volyhnia if I'm not mistaken, would you say that Lithuanians are Poles.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by AWAR
    Loki, as much as I'm impressed with you at 6 years, I must say you've lost a lot of IQ since then.
    It seems still to be adequate enough to refute your impulsive ramblings, though.

    The scientists did not take samples of DNA on the teritory of Ancient Poland, did they.
    They took samples from within the boundaries of today's poland.
    Of course, but massive people movements took place after WW2. The Poles shifted to the west (and north), and occupied previous German territory. Millions of Germans were expelled after WW2. I am surprised you don't seem to be aware of this.

    In 1280. Poland stretched over most of Lithuania and Volyhnia if I'm not mistaken, would you say that Lithuanians are Poles.....
    No, I didn't say Lithuanians were Poles, where do you get this idea from?

    Ancient Poland was well within the confines of the 1280 Mongol Empire (or at least a big chunk of it). And the descendants of many of these people now live in modern Poland, which is, as I have indicated, more to the west and north. As I've said, I recomment you purchase a good atlas of history, with some colourful maps too. And then compare it to current ones.

    See you in 24 hours.

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    Account Inactive Polak's Avatar
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    Well, I didn't want this to spark another heated historical debate.

    Some things to keep in mind in regards to this report...

    The real title of this piece is not "Mongolian Admixture in Poland" but "The first example of anti-Diegob found in a Polish woman with the Di(a+b-) phenotype and haemolytic disease of the newborn not requiring treatment".

    The inference that Mongolian invasions were responsible for this is of secondary importance to the people who wrote this report. And they are speculating that this may be the cause, they're not saying it is.

    Poland is singled out as the exception in Europe here, but not in terms of the markers, which are seen all over the continent [I'm here referring to anti-Diegob (anti-Dib) and HPA-2 and HPA-5].

    The issue is the frequency of these markers. But we don't really know the frequency, because the report doesn't say that. I know that other parts of northern Europe show similar frequencies of HPA-5 to Poland.

    Another article says there are similarities between the Dutch and Chinese when we take these HPA markers into consideration...

    The rarity of homozygous HPA-lb may explain the lower incidence of neo-natal alloimmune thrombocytopenia and posttranfusion purpura in ethnic Chinese and Asian people in general as compared with white people.10,18,32 For the genotype frequency of HPA-3a and HPA-3b, a similarity was noted between Chinese (0.5750/0.4250), Japanese (0.5940/ 0.4060), Slovenian19 (0.5910/0.4070), and Dutch10 people (0.555/0.445), and a difference was noted in Korean people (0.6700/0.3300).
    http://www.vghtpe.gov.tw/~tm/newpage19.htm


    There is a whole lot of factors that we must take into consideration when looking at such markers. Many things could've happened, including bottleneck effects and genetic drift. Saying that someone rode in on a horse and left this in Poland is indeed a possibility, but also a long shot. Here are more comments about this article by someone else...

    People need to not take one gene or marker in isolation as "proof" of relationships-rather, you have to look at the sum total of markers. the "scatter shot effect" can occur otherwise, if someone randomly shoots bullets at a wall, you will notice that there is some underlying pattern just because some will tend to cluster randomly. so-if you scan the whole genome you might find one marker that tweaks out due to random genetic affects and might indicate a greater relationship with another population than is warranted.
    In terms of Y-chromsome marker testing in Poland, we have been one of the best tested groups in Europe. Thousands of people have been tested as part of various studies, including one last year that took in people from all major regions of the country. Like I said, there is a lack of such markers as HG10 and HG26, which should be showing up.

    Not only that, but genetecists have actually been looking at the Mongol invasions of Eurasia, or at least at the gene that they think is of Mongol origin, and they came up with this report.

    http://web.unife.it/progetti/genetic...s/ajhg2003.pdf

    I would agree that both Y-chromosome and mtDNA markers may have disappeared in Poland for various reasons. But we're dealing here with several types of paternal and maternal markers, so I don't see why they would all disappear, or be reduced severely.

    These markers have been shown to work very well with other populations, reporting well documented admixture. So why should things be different for Poland?

    Regarding Autosomal DNA, I have seen many reports of various Polish populations and none indicate any deviations from the European norm. There has never been any mention of Far Eastern or East Asian influence. These reports are available through subscription on this site (I also have some of them on my PC, but they're in PDF format).

    http://www.springerlink.com/app/home...n1yh1xyvfdudu7

    There are also a couple of other Autosomal DNA reports on the net, available for free, though they're not quite as detailed.

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...50/002450.html

    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication..._2381-2385.pdf

    I've also included an attachment showing trends in Autosomal DNA in Eurasia (sorry it's in Russian).

    I will add that we really need to be objective when it comes to these reports. And here are some examples of what I mean...now I'm not posting these to antagonize anyone, just to give you an example of what we're dealing with in this case...

    East Asian admixture in Scandinavians.

    I thought I was purely of Scandinavian origin, but my results show minor East Asian admixture. How is this result possible?


    DNAPrint has found that many individuals reporting pure Scandinavian ancestry register with detectible East Asian admixture as well. This result may obtain through contribution of the Lapps, indigenous Scandinavians who share physical features, culture and common history with Northern Asian populations. Because DNAPrint’s Ancestry tests is the first such test ever developed to query all of the human DNA, these results represent original interpretations of the structure inherent to modern day populations and may have exciting implications for our understanding of our anthropological history of the Scandinavian region. If your results show significant East Asian admixture (greater than 5%), you should rest assured that at the level of DNA you share some greater affiliation with East Asians. Even though we cannot go back into time and prove exactly how this affiliation came to be, the history of the Scandinavian region gives us an important clue. One excellent example of a genetic study showing that a particular Scandinavian population has East Asian ancestry, was carried out by Rick Kittles and collaborators on a several sample of Finish from different regions of Finland (Kittles et al. 2000).


    Kittles RA, Perola M, Peltonen L, Bergen AW, Aragon RA, Virkkunen M, Linnoila M, Goldman D, Long JC. (1998) Dual origins of Finns revealed by Y chromosome haplotype variation. Am J Hum Genet 62:1171-1179.

    Moreover, scientists believe that Tat-C is indeed of East Asian origin. Many others don't, but that's beside the point here.

    And please note that Scandinavians do carry larger amounts of Tat-C than Poles (see attachment).

    Here is one of the latest reports on the origins of Tat-C...

    "The Tat-C haplogroup was observed at significant frequencies in each of the southern Middle Siberian populations studied (fig. 2). Surprisingly, it reached its highest frequency in the Siberian Eskimos and Chukchi from the Chukotkan peninsula. The Tat-C haplogroup was absent in the Lower Amur and Sea of Okhotsk region populations that have maintained greater geographic and/or linguistic isolation (e.g., the Udegeys, Nivkhs, and Upriver Negidals) and was only detected in the populations likely to have had recent contact or shared origins with the populations of southern Middle Siberia (e.g., the Okhotsk Evenks, Ulchi/Nanai, and Downriver Negidals). Because the Tat-C polymorphism originated on a Y chromosome containing the DYS7C deletion (haplogroup 7C), which was present only in the Middle Siberian Tuvans, Buryats, Tofalars, and Yenisey Evenks, the Tat-C haplogroup probably entered the Lower Amur and eastern Siberia from southern Middle Siberia. This conclusion is consistent with the previous hypothesis that the Tat-C and 7C haplogroups arose in central Asia and migrated west to northern Europe and east to Chukotka (Zerjal et al. 1997).

    The network of Tat-C and DYS7C haplotypes (fig. 4) revealed that the ancestral Tat-C haplotype (7C[11-11-10-10]) was found only in southern Middle Siberia, indicating that this Y-chromosome lineage arose in that region.
    Does this mean those carrying Tat-C are Mongol descendants. To me it doesn't, but to many (most?) scientists it does. And that's mainly because races are not really their primary concern.

    Here is some more stuff...

    This reoport says that individuals with Asian and Negroid markers are not uncommon in Holland, but what does "not uncommon" really mean? Should we take this as fact that Holland is a hybrid country?

    http://www.promega.com/geneticidproc...content/20.pdf


    And here's that famous case of that German American who thinks he's Attila the Hun's relative...

    http://www.kerchner.com/bga-back.htm


    Even the UK is not immune from evidence of admixture...

    This trait is more common in people of English, Irish or Scotch ancestry than in those of other ethnic groups. The high frequency of hemoglobin D Trait in this population is believed to reflect the large number of Indian wives brought home to England by British troops during Britain's long occupation of India.” - The Virginia Sickle Cell Awareness Program (VASCAP).
    “Hemoglobin D is uncommon in North America, occurring in less than 1 of 5000 persons. In the Punjab region of India and Pakistan, approximately 3 percent of the populations have the hemoglobin D Trait. This trait is more common in people of English, Irish, or Scotch ancestry than in those of other ethnic groups.” - The Virginia Sickle Cell Awareness Program (VASCAP).


    There is also more data on this very site showing foreign admixture, mtDNA and Y-chromosome, all over Europe. The Spanish, for instance, are showing more than 2% of Mongol mtDNA, while the Finns up to 4%. Thus, Poland is not alone.

    But let me reiterate, blood is not commonly used to study racial admixture - the aforementioned markers and Autosomal DNA are. In this case, speculation of admixture in the Polish population arose because of a need to explain the incidence of these blood antigens.

    I've just started to look at these blood markers today, and I think they came from a Finno-Ugric source, rather than a Mongol-Tatar one. It's starting to look like Poles do have affinities with Finns, even though the incidence of Tat-C in Poland is low. But I have to get some more data on that.


    Regards
    Last edited by Polak; Sunday, October 5th, 2003 at 05:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tryggvi
    The "Autosomal DNA map" looks very interesting. Can you translate it? What does it distribute?

    - Thorburn

    I'm getting details of that, and as soon as I do, I will post it here.

    I understand Russian, but not Cyrillic text.

    Regards

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    I think the suggestion that ‘rapes’ from any invasion could have an appreciable effect on the anthropological composition of a population is ridiculous. How many of the women were raped? How many of those who were raped survived? How many of those who survived conceived? How many of those who conceived went though their pregnancy and had children? How many of those children had descendants? The frequency decreases with each variable. Funny how no one here wants to discuss the genetic effect of Hunnish and Avar rapes on Germany....

    Btw, its quite impossible for that mtDNA to be of ‘rape’ origin. The offspring of a Mongoloid/Caucasoid union will invariably have Caucasoid mtDNA if their mother does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eendracht Maakt Mag
    Funny how no one here wants to discuss the genetic effect of Hunnish and Avar rapes on Germany....
    Polak has indeed touched on this point in another thread. He actually makes regular posts about supposed Mongoloid influence in Scandinavia and Germany. I wonder why.

    I'm willing to bet she isn't a Mongol, but then again she does come from the Rhine valley where the Huns burned a few cities, so who knows.

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