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Thread: How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

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    Post How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

    I admit that his general racial types of northern europe, particularly his differentiations between upper palaeolithic and nordic groups are still beneficial and relevant. However some of his hypothesizes seem so ridiculous that it undermines the plausiblity of his more credible theories.

    - I understand that there is correlations between his general classifications and their relation to countries. The "Hallstatt nordic" niche in scandinavia is a good indication of this.
    But how can we truly believe his theories of how, where and when they arrived and formed, when so much of his work is based on precariousness.

    You would have to be pretty credulous to believe nordics are derived from mediterraneans which according to coon encompasses people from bangladesh, to southern europe...How could that be possible when Upper palaeolithic groups share a greater affinity when considering skin hair and eye pigmentation (not to mention genetics)? - How does one trait such as a head size align a race with another when in every other respect they share no other similarities? - you can't seriously sit here and tell me (Particularly with the foresight of modern genetics) that some long headed north african semite shares closer ties with a gracile dolichocephalic swede, than a gracile dolichocephalic swede does to robust brachycephalics of his own countrymen.

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    Post

    His book is full of very useful data if you know how to use it.

    First of all, the data on ancient populations is fantastic. But his theories on these populations aren't as crash hot.

    His data on "current" Europeans is also quite good, though the problem here is that these are no longer current Europeans. They were 80-120 years ago, but no longer.

    Thus, this information must also be treated as a look into the past.

    Finally, his theories about the origins of Europeans, and such divisions as UP and Mediterranean are absolute crud. Sorry, but they are.

    I think that if he was writing that book today it would look very different.

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    Post I don't know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    His book is full of very useful data if you know how to use it.

    First of all, the data on ancient populations is fantastic. But his theories on these populations aren't as crash hot.

    His data on "current" Europeans is also quite good, though the problem here is that these are no longer current Europeans. They were 80-120 years ago, but no longer.

    Thus, this information must also be treated as a look into the past.

    Finally, his theories about the origins of Europeans, and such divisions as UP and Mediterranean are absolute crud. Sorry, but they are.

    I think that if he was writing that book today it would look very different.
    I'm new here and by no means an expert in anthropology.
    However, I am Italian and came across this article http://racialreality.shorturl.com/italians
    I find this extremely superficial and the stats that are used to back up his argument are simply irrelevant. The samples analyzed are way too small to be significant from a statistical point of view.

    Being 100% Italian I never thought I could come across anyone who would deny the influence of northern Africans, as well as northern Europeans in the variety of mixes found in Italy today.
    In another article I read about neolithical and paleolithical skeletons examined, which show no NA influence.
    Who said that the influence took place at that time? It was obviously afterwards that the Mores came to southern Italy, same for the Greek, and Arabs.
    Same point for northern Europeans in northern Italy.
    My father's side of the family is from the south and I guarantee you that it is no coincidence that their skin and features are much more similiar to a Moroccan individual than they are to a northener Italian.
    And this is not only true for my family.
    Maybe I am totally misunderstanding the concept, but this refusal of what to me is pure evidence is just firing me up.
    I would like to keep this discussion going and maybe some of you - certainly more educated than me on this subject - can shed some light on my doubts about this theory.
    Please try to explain in words that I can understand...sorry but I'm no professor in the subject.

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    Post Re: I don't know...

    Quote Originally Posted by firwol
    I'm new here and by no means an expert in anthropology.
    However, I am Italian and came across this article http://racialreality.shorturl.com/italians
    I find this extremely superficial and the stats that are used to back up his argument are simply irrelevant. The samples analyzed are way too small to be significant from a statistical point of view.

    Being 100% Italian I never thought I could come across anyone who would deny the influence of northern Africans, as well as northern Europeans in the variety of mixes found in Italy today.
    In another article I read about neolithical and paleolithical skeletons examined, which show no NA influence.
    Who said that the influence took place at that time? It was obviously afterwards that the Mores came to southern Italy, same for the Greek, and Arabs.
    Same point for northern Europeans in northern Italy.
    My father's side of the family is from the south and I guarantee you that it is no coincidence that their skin and features are much more similiar to a Moroccan individual than they are to a northener Italian.
    And this is not only true for my family.
    Maybe I am totally misunderstanding the concept, but this refusal of what to me is pure evidence is just firing me up.
    I would like to keep this discussion going and maybe some of you - certainly more educated than me on this subject - can shed some light on my doubts about this theory.
    Please try to explain in words that I can understand...sorry but I'm no professor in the subject.
    Good job.

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    Post Re: How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

    Finally, his theories about the origins of Europeans, and such divisions as UP and Mediterranean are absolute crud. Sorry, but they are.
    Maybe not in general, but in the way he meant it.

    His idea that UP or better Cromagnoid types are more or less strongly influenced by Neandertalids is a false assumption imo.

    So is his idea of "Mediterraneans" without any further distinction. I think they are related, but not only to each other but to certain related "UP" types as well.
    Furthermore they have to be divided in different subtypes, because Orientalids, Berberids, Indids etc are not just "Mediterranid" but max. "Mediterranoid" (similar but not the same)
    Magna Europa est patria nostra
    STOP GATS! STOP LIBERALISM!

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    Post Re: I don't know...

    Coon is my idol (when it comes to physical anthropology, at least). Some of his ideas might be a tad 'outdated', and it is up to the physical anthropologists of this era to 'rejuvinate' them, not misinterpret and butcher them as people like McCulloch have done.

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    Post Re: How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

    Coon is a baseline. He used the raw data gathered a generation before him and before the population movements of the 20th Century. He based his theories on the data he had and the history, linguistics and metrical data he had.

    Today, we have the benifit of the genetic evidence and, here at Skadi, people who know this methodology and how to explain it to the rest of us. This means Coon can be tested, independently. The fact that Nordics are not Meds and more closely related to UP is one of the things Coon got wrong. But Coon was willing to modify his ideas as new data came in . For instance, in The Races Of Europe, he presented his theory that UP were a result of early Med. + Neanderthal hybidization. This theory, as Agrippa says, has largely been discredited with genetic evidence. But, we should keep in mind that this type of genetic research only came about in 1974 and is still developing.

    If you ask me, the bone data says there was hybridization between H. sapiens and Neanderthals, resulting in UP and, by extension, Europeans. We should hold the feet of the genetics people to the fire until every possibility of such hybridization is discounted. If even a minute shred of evidence is found in the future, this effort will be atributed to Carlton Coon and others of the same beliefs before and after him.

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    Post Re: I don't know...

    Quote Originally Posted by Abby Normal
    Coon is my idol (when it comes to physical anthropology, at least). Some of his ideas might be a tad 'outdated', and it is up to the physical anthropologists of this era to 'rejuvinate' them, not misinterpret and butcher them as people like McCulloch have done.
    Yeah, some of his ideas, like race exists, while most anthropologists say it doesn't.

    What did McCulloch misinterpret or butcher? That sounds very haughty of you.

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    Post Re: How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

    Frayer, Jelinek and Wolpoff established a gradualistic scenario for Central Europe and it works perfectly out for the Mladec samples, the difference in gracilization of the genders, more prolific in the females could lie in the impact of blade tool innovations, but there is even among them enough intra-gender variance to suggest Neanderthaloid influence: e.g. the chignon is "re-imagined" in a more posterior position of the nuchal plane.
    And Mousterian lithic implements and tools were still by far and large used till the Dryas III period, ten thousand years ago among the Komsa people in Finnmark.

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    Post Re: How seriously do you take Carlton Coon?

    Coon made a valid point in stating a disparity between UP Europeans and Mediterreneans, but his vision needed a correction and imo Loring Brace did the job.

    He found out that the Natufians in the Levant(incl. the present-day Palestinians and problably also the Jews), otherwise classed as UP Meds or Capellids, are of Subsaharan extraction, a zoogeographical term to indicate that they originate from an equatorial/tropical habitat, it doesn't imply Negroid affinity; in fact, the ancient Subsaharians exhibited many characteristics which we would call Australoid.
    It would explain the Melanesian particularities among Capellids and why we find in some non-European Meds and Jews alike woolly or frizzled hair, Papuan qualities...

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