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Thread: Centum-Satem_isogloss

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    Centum-Satem_isogloss

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum-Satem_isogloss



    I've come to the conclusion that:

    Centum=Basque: Roman Catholicism, United States Capitalist, Atlantic Ocean

    Satem=Caucasian: Armenian Orthodoxy, Soviet Union Communist, Caspian Sea

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    Basque? But Basque is not an IE language, it can't be centum.
    Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt.

    « -Oh my God, but you're a neo-nazi?!...
    -But why neo? »

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Weg
    Basque? But Basque is not an IE language, it can't be centum.
    Does it not have broadly the same way of speaking, regardless of specific classification? I think that this is a Basque-Caucasian divide and that otherwise, an isogloss would not exist.

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Lewis S. Owings
    Does it not have broadly the same way of speaking, regardless of specific classification? I think that this is a Basque-Caucasian divide and that otherwise, an isogloss would not exist.
    Basque has absolutely nothing of the same way of speaking — which is one of the primary reasons for the classification. In my experience, it is less like an Indo-European than the Semitic languages are, and that's saying quite a lot — Semitic languages make verbs agree in gender with the actor.

    Basque is an ergative/absolutive language, rather than a nominative/accusative language. The IE languages are all nom./acc., so we say 'I' for the subject of the sentence, and 'me' for the direct object. In an ergative/absolutive language, the agent of an intransitive verb or the patient of a transitive verb takes the absolutive case while the agent of a transitive verb takes the ergative case. If English were ergative/absolutive, it would have sentences like these:
    • "I am happy." — not a problem
    • "Him sees I." — problem, it should be "He sees me."
    • "Me see he." — problem, it should be "I see him."
    Most of the ergative/absolutive languages I know of are aboriginal languages of Australia and New Guinea.

    Furthermore, Basque has about thirteen to fifteen cases. That's a lot. English has three, and they only all show up in pronouns. German has four. Spanish has (arguably) four, but you'll only ever see them all in the pronouns. Old Latin had seven, and that was a lot for an IE language. Greek and the Slavic languages are between Old Latin and German. Most of the languages with a dozen or more cases are tribal languages in Africa, America, or the western Pacific.

    Basque's syntactic structure is strongly SOV, the same as proto-Indo-European, but unseen in most European languages for the past couple of millennia. To see the even greater difference this would cause, let me shift those last two sample sentences from above from SVO into SOV (while retaining the ergative/absolutive case system): "Him I sees," and "Me he see." You can't make sense of it whatsoever now if you aren't familiar with an SOV, ergative/absolutive language.

    From a phonological perspective, consider one of Basque's most well-known affricates: /tx/. That's right, a voiceless alveolar stop followed by a voiceless velar fricative. And they start syllables with it. In German orthography (I can't give it in English orthography since we have lost the voiceless velar fricative), this would be spelled "tch". Just ask a German if he'd like to say "untchi" (not "untschi") every time he wanted to talk about a bunny rabbit. It's not happening. This affricate would never appear in a European IE language.

    Of all the languages of Europe, Basque is probably the least like any IE language. You can't just casually discard a "specific classification" like Indo-European.

    About the centum/satem division in IE, remember that Tocharian, an ancient IE language of what is now western China, is a centum language. It's not a simple east-west thing, in other words. In PIE, the form for 'hundred' had a velar stop and a nasal before the [t] — clearly a centum language, as it were. The centum languages today have retained the older form. This sort of conservatism is typical of linguistic varieties along the periphery of a language's extension: the center innovates while the fringes preserve. Observe, for example, the many similarities shared among Portuguese, Spanish, and Romanian that contrast with corresponding similarities shared among Catalan, French, and Italian. The reason for the centum/satem division hasn't anything to do with Basques — it has to do with the fact that the earliest Aryans came from a region in western Asia, north of the Caspian, near the Urals, they spread west into Europe and east into central Asia and south into Persia and India, and the farthest-flung Aryans (in western Europe and China) retained the older form while those closer to the center adopted the quite reasonable satem innovation (I say it is quite reasonable because [k]>[s] before a front vowel is quite common, as is N>Ř in the coda followed by an obstruent).

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Leofric
    Basque has absolutely nothing of the same way of speaking — which is one of the primary reasons for the classification. In my experience, it is less like an Indo-European than the Semitic languages are, and that's saying quite a lot — Semitic languages make verbs agree in gender with the actor.

    Basque is an ergative/absolutive language, rather than a nominative/accusative language. The IE languages are all nom./acc., so we say 'I' for the subject of the sentence, and 'me' for the direct object. In an ergative/absolutive language, the agent of an intransitive verb or the patient of a transitive verb takes the absolutive case while the agent of a transitive verb takes the ergative case. If English were ergative/absolutive, it would have sentences like these:
    • "I am happy." — not a problem
    • "Him sees I." — problem, it should be "He sees me."
    • "Me see he." — problem, it should be "I see him."
    Most of the ergative/absolutive languages I know of are aboriginal languages of Australia and New Guinea.

    Furthermore, Basque has about thirteen to fifteen cases. That's a lot. English has three, and they only all show up in pronouns. German has four. Spanish has (arguably) four, but you'll only ever see them all in the pronouns. Old Latin had seven, and that was a lot for an IE language. Greek and the Slavic languages are between Old Latin and German. Most of the languages with a dozen or more cases are tribal languages in Africa, America, or the western Pacific.

    Basque's syntactic structure is strongly SOV, the same as proto-Indo-European, but unseen in most European languages for the past couple of millennia. To see the even greater difference this would cause, let me shift those last two sample sentences from above from SVO into SOV (while retaining the ergative/absolutive case system): "Him I sees," and "Me he see." You can't make sense of it whatsoever now if you aren't familiar with an SOV, ergative/absolutive language.

    From a phonological perspective, consider one of Basque's most well-known affricates: /tx/. That's right, a voiceless alveolar stop followed by a voiceless velar fricative. And they start syllables with it. In German orthography (I can't give it in English orthography since we have lost the voiceless velar fricative), this would be spelled "tch". Just ask a German if he'd like to say "untchi" (not "untschi") every time he wanted to talk about a bunny rabbit. It's not happening. This affricate would never appear in a European IE language.

    Of all the languages of Europe, Basque is probably the least like any IE language. You can't just casually discard a "specific classification" like Indo-European.

    About the centum/satem division in IE, remember that Tocharian, an ancient IE language of what is now western China, is a centum language. It's not a simple east-west thing, in other words. In PIE, the form for 'hundred' had a velar stop and a nasal before the [t] — clearly a centum language, as it were. The centum languages today have retained the older form. This sort of conservatism is typical of linguistic varieties along the periphery of a language's extension: the center innovates while the fringes preserve. Observe, for example, the many similarities shared among Portuguese, Spanish, and Romanian that contrast with corresponding similarities shared among Catalan, French, and Italian. The reason for the centum/satem division hasn't anything to do with Basques — it has to do with the fact that the earliest Aryans came from a region in western Asia, north of the Caspian, near the Urals, they spread west into Europe and east into central Asia and south into Persia and India, and the farthest-flung Aryans (in western Europe and China) retained the older form while those closer to the center adopted the quite reasonable satem innovation (I say it is quite reasonable because [k]>[s] before a front vowel is quite common, as is N>Ř in the coda followed by an obstruent).
    I'm not so sure I believe this, while you have not addressed the Caucasian lingual relationship either. "Aryan" only applies to an historical ethnic people, whom produced the Iranian languages and their name lives on in Iran(formerly Aryana) today. Our correct origin is in a certain Japheth son of Noah, father of the Gentiles from Armenia, while you are in fact defaming our heritage with Jewish Khazarian propaganda(as if the Uralics and Altaics are White, whatever!). The Satem isolate is due to a local economic community on the Caucasian Caspian instead of the Basque Atlantic, which got separate by repeated Asian invasions(eg. Khazar). You also have not addressed the Capital/American-Commune/Soviet, or the Catholic/West-Orthodox/East divides.

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    I'm sorry, is this thread proposing the origin of the centum-satem split in IE to be a result of substrate reprocessing of IE consontal systems viz. atlantid (euskara, pictish?) interpretation of IE *k (or k') > /k/, eastern (caucasoid, ural-altaic, finno-ugric, hurrian, anatolian?) > /kj/, /sj/, /s/ etc.?

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    Re: Centum-Satem_isogloss

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Lewis S. Owings
    I'm not so sure I believe this,
    Since when has belief had anything to do with linguistics?!
    while you have not addressed the Caucasian lingual relationship either.
    Why should we? There are three quite different Caucasian families of languages, two of them with their historical kin to the south of that range, away from our world, and one being a refuge of a very early group that preceded our Eurasian one's domination of the present Steppelands. The Caucasus is where little groups go to hide and linger on beyond their sell by date. Most of the nature of IE can be explained purely internally, without any need for scouring over atlases looking for potential candidates for substrate influence.
    Our correct origin is in a certain Japheth son of Noah, father of the Gentiles from Armenia,
    Oh dear. Go away, you silly person. Oh, you have done. Good.
    while you are in fact defaming our heritage with Jewish Khazarian propaganda(as if the Uralics and Altaics are White, whatever!).
    Ever met any Uralics? Don't defame the Khazars, either!
    Note to all stupid people: A Jew thought up that Khazar link. It's nonsense. Have you ever seen an Ashkenazic Jew? Or an Astrakhan Tatar? Can you imagine an Ashkenazic Jew sat on a hardy steppe horse, braving the elements, living off his own strength and will in the wild open spaces of the Wild Field?
    The Satem isolate is due to a local economic community on the Caucasian Caspian instead of the Basque Atlantic, which got separate by repeated Asian invasions(eg. Khazar). You also have not addressed the Capital/American-Commune/Soviet, or the Catholic/West-Orthodox/East divides.
    What divide? Go and live there and tell me about that divide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theudanaz
    I'm sorry, is this thread proposing the origin of the centum-satem split in IE to be a result of substrate reprocessing of IE consontal systems viz. atlantid (euskara, pictish?) interpretation of IE *k (or k') > /k/, eastern (caucasoid, ural-altaic, finno-ugric, hurrian, anatolian?) > /kj/, /sj/, /s/ etc.?
    Seems so. Rather daft. Seems rather more to be one of those phenomena that are potential in IE in general, rather than a geographic/substrate matter. Armenian changed from Kentum to Satem. Albanian may have done something analogous. It's a bit like that P/Q thing you get in Celtic and Italic

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    It seems that the Bloc differences have a genetic basis, so it's blood, but Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians are Satem and R1a haplogroup, whereas Germans and Italo-Celts are Centum and R1b haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodskarl Dubhgall View Post
    It seems that the Bloc differences have a genetic basis, so it's blood, but Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians are Satem and R1a haplogroup, whereas Germans and Italo-Celts are Centum and R1b haplogroup.
    A geographical isogloss was once postulated, but essentially collapsed upon the discovery of Tocharian A and B, with is centum. Being those furthest East and at the same time being neither linguistically, nor genetically or culturally closer to Western-European centum language.

    It seems to be a spontaneous decision whether to drop palatals or to drop labio-velars. Sure there's a possibility that this happened more likely with some more closely related peoples and/or tongues - but as long as the Tocharian case is not explained, it makes little sense. Linking even to haplotypes is even much more speculative than that.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    A geographical isogloss was once postulated, but essentially collapsed upon the discovery of Tocharian A and B, with is centum. Being those furthest East and at the same time being neither linguistically, nor genetically or culturally closer to Western-European centum language.

    It seems to be a spontaneous decision whether to drop palatals or to drop labio-velars. Sure there's a possibility that this happened more likely with some more closely related peoples and/or tongues - but as long as the Tocharian case is not explained, it makes little sense. Linking even to haplotypes is even much more speculative than that.
    Insofar as the basic differences between East and West, it has to be in the blood, regardless of how they spoke.

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