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Thread: Race and Ethnos: Understanding the Racial Question

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer

    It doesn't. The highest frequencies of HG12/16 are in predominantly Mongoloid Central Asian groups: Tofalars (94%), Yakuts (87%), Nenets (80%), Buryats (67%), Eskimos (61%), Chukchi (58%).
    The frequencies are so high because every single one of those ethnic groups has been subjected to a strong founders' effect. If you can't see that, you must be an idiot (find me an ethnic group with a 94% frequency of a given haplogroup that was not subject to a founders' effect).

    The genes just happen to have been transmitted to an area of Europe which is the epicenter of blondism.
    Again, please explain to me how a group with 50% Tat-C (and around 2% Mongoloid mtDNA) has 0 dark eyes and 0 epicanthi.



    Not if the Uralic settlers
    Please provide some evidence of the implicit assertion that their racial type was Uralic.

    were chiefly male and intermarried with European females
    You only have evidence that this happened in Finland. Please explain to me how Russian Pomors, supposedly with 27% "Mongoloid" ancestry have 0 dark eyes and 0 epicanthi.

  2. #52
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    Keep it civil, gentlemen.

  3. #53
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    I'm sure you think you're being funny, but you'd better be careful what you call "Middle Eastern". It could soon come back to haunt you:
    I'm sure that some Hg 9/21 lineages were introduced to Europe during the influx of agriculture.

    However, Southern Europe still has more Hg 9/21 lineages than Central Europe, to which the spread of agriculture had a greater effect upon. Thus, one can infer that a great deal of Hg 9/21 lineages in Southern Europe are of recent introduction.

    By no surprise, Richards has similar findings.

    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ...085/024085.html

    " The analysis for eastern Mediterranean Europe indicated a very high frequency (20%) of recent gene flow, as compared with only 10% Neolithic input."

    A similar pattern is seen in terms of the Maternal Contribution.

    Frequency of J (*)

    Ireland 11.72 %
    England/Wales 10.72%
    Scotland 8.64%
    Iceland 6.85%
    Turkey/Bulgaria 5.88%
    Spain/Portugal 3.69%
    France/Italy 2.42%

    Frequency of J2

    Bulgaria/Turkey 2.94%
    France/Italy 2.42%
    Western Isles/Isle of Skye 1.63%*
    Iceland 1.28%*
    Ireland .78%
    England/Wales .23%
    Austria/Switzerland 0%

    J* is an older sub-clade of the greater Haplogroup J, which is considered to be Neolithic.

    J2 is defined by a newer mutation, and can thus be reflective of more recent genetic contribution.

    Moreover, the relatively high frequencies of J2 among the Icelanders and Western Islanders (Scottish) can perhaps be attributed to a positive selection of Haplogroup J in Northern Europe, as neither population has found to have any paternal neolithic lineages.

    "Positive selection is also a possible influence. The presence of mtDNA haplogroup J in our sample, and elsewhere in Northern Europe shows that its frequency in Norway is even higher than in those areas from where it probably arrived. It would be intriguing, although very speculative, to hypothesise that the climate of Northern Europe may have played a selective pressure where the uncoupling of oxidative phosphorylation and the consequent higher production of heat in J individuals may have led to an advantage, as previously suggested for the European groups during the glaciations. (Passarino et al. 2002)"


    It doesn't. The highest frequencies of HG12/16 are in predominantly Mongoloid Central Asian groups: Tofalars (94%), Yakuts (87%), Nenets (80%), Buryats (67%), Eskimos (61%), Chukchi (58%). The genes just happen to have been transmitted to an area of Europe which is the epicenter of blondism.
    Nice try.

    The above populations (namely Yakuts, although presumably others) are overwhelmingly Mongoloid in terms of their mtDNA (~80%).

    Therefore, Tat-C is reflective of mixing with North-Eastern Europeans, who are the aboriginal inhabitants of Eurasia.

    Not if the Uralic settlers were chiefly male and intermarried with European females:
    I agree in that the Finns cluster with other North-Eastern Europeans in terms of the Y-Chromosome, and with other Europeans in terms of their mtDNA.

    However, this does not suggest a Mongoloid origin for Tat-C (see: above).

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer
    Greece (and S Europe in general) is on the fringes of Europe, far from centers of commerce. In addition, it has limited natural resources. Ireland (another fringe region) also lagged behind Europe until EU subsidies enabled it to catch up. Wales still lags behind despite heavy subsidies. But no one ever mentions that.
    Precisely, and Wales and Ireland are also largely Mediterranean.

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    Thus, one can infer that a great deal of Hg 9/21 lineages in Southern Europe are of recent introduction.
    Look, I already discussed hg25.2 several times in the "Sicilians" thread, and I've linked repeatedly to autosomal studies showing a virtual absence of recent gene flow across the Mediterranean. Do we have to keep going around in circles? I think the less "inferring" you do the better.

    J2 is defined by a newer mutation, and can thus be reflective of more recent genetic contribution.
    Yeah, and its frequencies are extremely low even in Southern Europe.

    Therefore, Tat-C is reflective of mixing with North-Eastern Europeans, who are the aboriginal inhabitants of Eurasia.
    Sorry, but no. Mongoloids have been in Central Asia since at least 21,000 B.P. (Alekseev 1998; Wolpoff 1999). Tat-C originated there just 4000 years ago and correlates with archeological evidence of Uralic migrations from the east. The latest research says it's unclear whether Tat-C is ultimately of Mongoloid or Turkic origin (Derenko et al. 2002). But either way, it had to have been disseminated to NE Europe from Asia by migrants of mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid descent. Therefore, it is neither European nor "white".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stríbog
    Precisely, and Wales and Ireland are also largely Mediterranean.
    Mediterraneans of various types have produced a disproportionate amount of world civilization. Currently, Italy and Spain have the 4th and 5th largest economies in Europe. What have Balts accomplished in the last 5000 years? Answer: nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Medhammer
    Sorry, but no. Mongoloids have been in Central Asia since at least 21,000 B.P. (Alekseev 1998; Wolpoff 1999). Tat-C originated there just 4000 years ago and correlates with archeological evidence of Uralic migrations from the east. The latest research says it's unclear whether Tat-C is ultimately of Mongoloid or Turkic origin (Derenko et al. 2002). But either way, it had to have been disseminated to NE Europe from Asia by migrants of mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid descent. Therefore, it is neither European nor "white".
    There is nothing to be sorry about really. For some reason you keep ignoring that NE European populations with high TAT-C have 0% of dark hair and 0% of dark eyes. From the facts you have provided one can not judge whether it is Mongoloid or not simply because it is found in both groups, with relatively the same percentage. Therefore we need to find something else which could prove either your point or ours. Eendracht has provided you with such a proof, while you didn't.

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    nt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greasehammer
    .
    (Alekseev 1998; Wolpoff 1999).
    ROFL! Have you ever actually read anything by either author?
    Tat-C originated there just 4000 years ago and correlates with archeological evidence of Uralic migrations from the east.
    Two things:

    1. Tat-C originated in Siberia (learn some geography, greaseball, that's not in 'Central Asia), in an area of lake Baikal that was populated by Caucasoid Cro-Magnons. 2. Tat-C does not in any way correlate with historical Uralic introgression into Eastern Europe. The Uralic racial type entred Eastern Europe in the early Neolithic, whereas tat-C originated at least 5 millenia after that.

    The latest research says it's unclear whether Tat-C is ultimately of Mongoloid or Turkic origin (Derenko et al. 2002).
    Again, you show clearly that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. Only cite authors you've actually read. By the way, they probably didn't teach you this in the Brooklyn high school you went to, by "Someone et al. 2002" is not a valid way to cite a source within text unless you provide a bibliography at the end of the page.
    But either way, it had to have been disseminated to NE Europe from Asia by migrants of mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid descent. Therefore, it is neither European nor "white".
    Bwaahahaa...Your Arab ancestors were neither 'white nor 'European'.

    Now answer the question: how does a group with 27% "Mongoloid" ancestry have 0 dark eyes and 0 epicanthi?

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