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Thread: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

  1. #71
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    Albanian is indeed an isolate within IE but it shares vocabulary with Baltic on the one hand and Daco-Mysian on the other. Hamp at least proposed a possible "Albanoid" presence as far north as Poland: but all we can say is that Albanian migrated southwards to its present location, it is uncontroversially IE and that its vocabulary is heavily latinised as opposed to the influence of Greek.

    I am not thinking of Germanic origins in terms of a split in a tree, rather of reticulation with three out of at least four European IE branches contributing: one Italo-Celtic, one Balto-Slavic and something close to Albanian which is presumably as a survivor of lost languages (perhaps Daco-Mysian). Indeed the only surviving major branch of IE that seems not to have contributed, is Greco-Armenian. The mysterious arrival of the Albanians demonstrates they have a history of migration towards the south.

    It is thought that Baltic and Celtic settlement in Poland was never extensive: this leaves open the question of who prewceded the Germanics and the Slavs. Perhaps someone undergoing a language shift in the past explains the divergence of Albanian Y chromosomes if the language migrated so far southward?

  2. #72
    Mein Glaube ist die Liebe zu meinem Volk. Juthunge's Avatar
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    I am not thinking of Germanic origins in terms of a split in a tree, rather of reticulation with three out of at least four European IE branches contributing: one Italo-Celtic, one Balto-Slavic and something close to Albanian which is presumably as a survivor of lost languages (perhaps Daco-Mysian).
    Since Balto-Slavic is undisputedly younger as a separate entity, directly contribution from it to Germanic is pretty much impossible. It's also not clear, if they even bordered Germanics in pre-history.

    A shared origin would be possible, though, with some later language contact with Celtic.

    So would be a shared origin with Italo-Celtic with later contact with Balto-Slavic, however.

    Or, as a third option, a split somewhere in Hungary/Slovakia, the proto-Italo-Celts going up the Danube into Austria and southern Germany, the proto-Germanics going north into Bohemia, then following the Elbe up into northern Germany, the Balto-Slavs going northeast.
    This is my personal unqualified theory, however.

    Overall, the evidence for Albanian as a substrate seems too slim and circumstantial to me, in any case.

    It is thought that Baltic and Celtic settlement in Poland was never extensive: this leaves open the question of who prewceded the Germanics and the Slavs.
    They don’t have to be necessarily preceded by another Indo-European language. Germanic could have been endemic in western Poland. The Celts had certainly reached southern Silesia, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catterick View Post
    Albanian is indeed an isolate within IE but it shares vocabulary with Baltic on the one hand and Daco-Mysian on the other. Hamp at least proposed a possible "Albanoid" presence as far north as Poland: but all we can say is that Albanian migrated southwards to its present location, it is uncontroversially IE and that its vocabulary is heavily latinised as opposed to the influence of Greek.

    The mysterious arrival of the Albanians demonstrates they have a history of migration towards the south.
    Thinking about it, it’s possible they were akin to the Vlachs who roamed all the way from Romania to the Peloponnese.
    Being well north of the Jircek line, hat could account for their strong Latin influences but without giving up much of their Dacian language, opposed to the Vlachs/Romanians, as well as possible (Eastern) Germanic and Balto-Slavic influences. Haplogroups E-V13 and J2 are certainly very common among Romanians

    On the other hand, both haplogroups are even more common in the Kosovo, the Albanian sared land.
    which is also already north of the Jirecek line. I don’t think in that light we would have to go much further north than that.
    "Stürzten wir wohl im Dunkel – wir starben nicht! Immer war Sehnsucht die Straße und Ziel das Licht.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member Catterick's Avatar
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    I often wonder what the Vlachs spoke prior to their language shift. Yes I do wonder if on day we might find out. Historical sources are not clear as to which group of Balkans nomads is which but the Romanisation of the Vlachs certainly has to do with peoplealong the Roman limes. The Latin influence upon Albanian took place in such a context that much terminology was replaced, but not that relating to montane environments.

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    Member Sigrun Kara's Avatar
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    The comparison with Norway also demonstrates, I think, the areas that are almost purely Celtic, namely Ireland, Wales and the Basque.
    Iceland is genetically in the same category as countries such as England, Scotland and France where they are a Germanic and Celtic mixture, despite Icelandic culture being purely Germanic. To me, their culture and language make Iceland indisputably Germanic.
    Hungary and Poland being genetically close to Norway is interesting. I suspect this is from Germans immigrating to those countries. Some of the most renowned Hungarian families are of German descent, like the gens Gutkeled of Swabian descent, gens Pápa of Bavarian descent, and also Balogh, Hahót, Győr and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigrun Kara View Post
    The comparison with Norway also demonstrates, I think, the areas that are almost purely Celtic, namely Ireland, Wales and the Basque.
    Iceland is genetically in the same category as countries such as England, Scotland and France where they are a Germanic and Celtic mixture, despite Icelandic culture being purely Germanic. To me, their culture and language make Iceland indisputably Germanic.
    Hungary and Poland being genetically close to Norway is interesting. I suspect this is from Germans immigrating to those countries. Some of the most renowned Hungarian families are of German descent, like the gens Gutkeled of Swabian descent, gens Pápa of Bavarian descent, and also Balogh, Hahót, Győr and others.
    You have someone who I assume is polish, as they often refer to themselves as "Prussian" since they are ashamed of their polish ancestry for whatever reason. That is maybe a topic for another thread. In any case he was dubiously comparing claimed Y markers and nothing more, drawing his own conclusions and even noting that it must be viewed with "appropriate skepticism." I am not even sure what exactly the data was comparing and how they were coming to their conclusions.

    You will know who you feel familiar with and who you do not, it is instinctual. This is true for everyone. There is actual genetic mapping of Europe available as well, a common one below:


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    Quote Originally Posted by fjaran View Post
    You have someone who I assume is polish, as they often refer to themselves as "Prussian" since they are ashamed of their polish ancestry for whatever reason. That is maybe a topic for another thread. In any case he was dubiously comparing claimed Y markers and nothing more, drawing his own conclusions and even noting that it must be viewed with "appropriate skepticism." I am not even sure what exactly the data was comparing and how they were coming to their conclusions.

    You will know who you feel familiar with and who you do not, it is instinctual. This is true for everyone. There is actual genetic mapping of Europe available as well, a common one below:

    Link above is broken at times.

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