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Thread: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Just a quick quiery, to clarify, Individuals may be Germanic, but not populations(within regions), according to this study?
    Tired

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    Senior Member The Black Prince's Avatar
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    You claim #2 is based upon nothing I ever questioned:..

    Quote Originally Posted by WestPrussian
    claim #2) and which you identify as Uralic. Supposedly, these semi-Germanics are the ancestors of today’s Norwegians everywhere except for the South.[/font][/color]

    [color=black][font=Verdana]You seem to believe that the fact that N3 occurs in North Norway at a frequency of 10.6% (Dupuy et al) substantiates this idea that there was some kind of an amalgamation of non-Germanic and Germanic elements in early Norwegians
    No, I don't believe the above stated, read my post again (I've quoted it in the last post of me) I said that Northern- and Eastern Norway are unusable. Not the rest of Norway since I think that N3 is not more here than to be count mereley as low influence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thruthheim
    Just a quick quiery, to clarify, Individuals may be Germanic, but not populations(within regions), according to this study?
    The study is somewhat else, but this thread deals with this idea:

    you have a "pure" Germanic pop. (800 BC. ~ 650 BC) of course after some time they expand, some to the south (Germany, Belgium), where they mixed with the Kelts. Other towards the north (Northern halve of Sweden and Norway) others etc.., where they mixed with old UP and later on Uralids.

    But the key is that there may not be, according to WestPrussian more as 5% differentiaton since, if we go above, we can not speak of one race.


    This thread now deals with the thing that WestPrussian considers to have found a practically unaltered Germanic population in the whole of Norway while I claim that only the southern half may contain a practically unaltered type (and I'm even suspicious of that. ).

  3. #33
    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Prince
    The study is somewhat else, but this thread deals with this idea:

    you have a "pure" Germanic pop. (800 BC. ~ 650 BC) of course after some time they expand, some to the south (Germany, Belgium), where they mixed with the Kelts. Other towards the north (Northern halve of Sweden and Norway) others etc.., where they mixed with old UP and later on Uralids.

    But the key is that there may not be, according to WestPrussian more as 5% differentiaton since, if we go above, we can not speak of one race.


    This thread now deals with the thing that WestPrussian considers to have found a practically unaltered Germanic population in the whole of Norway while I claim that only the southern half may contain a practically unaltered type (and I'm even suspicious of that. ).
    Isn't the sami of asiatic extraction? If so, then the influence on Norway is not only non-germanic, it would be non-europid, right? If this bears any truth, then i can see your point Black Prince
    Tired

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    Senior Member The Black Prince's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Thruthheim
    Isn't the sami of asiatic extraction? If so, then the influence on Norway is not only non-germanic, it would be non-europid, right? If this bears any truth, then i can see your point Black Prince
    N3 (Uralid) is considered as non-Europid, although its carriers like Saami and such are mostly seen as partly Europid or the most extreme form of Europid, since they also contain a large part of full-Europid.

    E.g East-Baltid compared to Baltid is the difference in Uralid admixture (East-Baltid contains Uralid admixture, while Baltid is fully Europid).

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Prince
    N3 (Uralid) is considered as non-Europid, although its carriers like Saami and such are mostly seen as partly Europid or the most extreme form of Europid, since they also contain a large part of full-Europid.

    E.g East-Baltid compared to Baltid is the difference in Uralid admixture (East-Baltid contains Uralid admixture, while Baltid is fully Europid).
    So the N3 in Norway(as i assume Sweden carries it also?) would negate the Germanicness of Norway as a national entity? Obviously, Norway is Germanic, but is it the 100% that is claimed if we are seeing Germanic as a racial entity?

    Would this then, make Denmark the only full Germanic nation, if we use the guidelines of this study?
    Tired

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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Truthheim
    Just a quick quiery, to clarify, Individuals may be Germanic, but not populations(within regions), according to this study?
    Absolutely. This thread is only about Germanic populations and not about Germanic individuals. For instance, assume for a moment that there would have been no intermingling of Saxons/Danes with native Britons following the Germanic invasions. In this case, all Germanic invaders and all their descendants would have completely retained their racial characteristics. Consequently, England would be 20-30% purely Saxon/Danish. In spite of this, population genetic studies investigating the English would probably not identify a significant Anglo-Saxon component due to the preponderance of the original British. In spite of this, any individual invader (or any of his descendants) would still be 100% Germanic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truthheim
    Isn't the sami of asiatic extraction? If so, then the influence on Norway is not only non-germanic, it would be non-europid, right? If this bears any truth, then i can see your point Black Prince
    Nope. There has not been a whole lot of evidence to show that N3 is any less European than R1b which is predominant in Britain (Neither N3 nor R1b is Indo-European, and both are about equally distant genetically from Germanics)

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    Senior Member Thruthheim's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by WestPrussian
    Absolutely. This thread is only about Germanic populations and not about Germanic individuals. For instance, assume for a moment that there would have been no intermingling of Saxons/Danes with native Britons following the Germanic invasions. In this case, all Germanic invaders and all their descendants would have completely retained their racial characteristics. Consequently, England would be 20-30% purely Saxon/Danish. In spite of this, population genetic studies investigating the English would probably not identify a significant Anglo-Saxon component due to the preponderance of the original British. In spite of this, any individual invader (or any of his descendants) would still be 100% Germanic.

    Nope. There has not been a whole lot of evidence to show that N3 is any less European than R1b which is predominant in Britain (Neither N3 nor R1b is Indo-European, and both are about equally distant genetically from Germanics)
    So would i still be classed as Germanic under this study? Or..
    Tired

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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    This does not affect you or anyone else. It just provides statistics which are useful in determining probabilities (i.e in this case the probability that someone is racially Germanic based on his or her country or region of origin)

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    Member Galaico's Avatar
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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by WestPrussian
    There has not been a whole lot of evidence to show that N3 is any less European than R1b which is predominant in Britain (Neither N3 nor R1b is Indo-European, and both are about equally distant genetically from Germanics)
    So in your opinion which haplogroup is the one related to Germanics, because as far as I know the sub-haplogroup R1b3, is related to Danes/Saxons in Britain, and the R1b haplogroup is the majoritary haplogroup in Denmark.

    Properly, only the R1a haplogroup is related to proto-Indo-Europeans, but all three Paleolithic European haplogroups (R1a, R1b and I) are found among Persian, Afghan, Pakistani and Indian males of Aryan origin.

    The N3 haplogroup was brought to Europe by the Fenno-Ugrians 5,000 years ago, while the R1b haplogroup is estimated to have been brought to Europe about 35,000 years ago by the first Cro-Magnon settlers.

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    Re: Who is Germanic? The Evolutionary Distinctiveness of Modern Germanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaico
    all three Paleolithic European haplogroups (R1a, R1b and I) are found among Persian, Afghan, Pakistani and Indian males of Aryan origin
    Sources please?

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