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Thread: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    For whatever it is worth:

    I met a guy at work about 1971 and we became good friends. His last name was "Evans" but he kept saying he was Polish. He looked eastern. Like most Americans, his ancestry was of little concern. He knew a few words of Polish which he would exchange with other employees sometimes.

    Years later he told me his father or grandfather had changed their name to Evans. He told me that he was Ukranian-Polish and that his original name had been Yavernicky or something sounding like that. He went on, saying that he was told one of his ancestors was a Mongol. To me, this name Yavernicky is indication of that: Yaver (Avar) with the nicky being some Slavic suffix for person. Am I wrong?

    Don't see much of a link between Yaver and Avar. The name was probably Jawernicki, but I don't see any real link in Polish between Jawer and Avar. Moreover, all Lithuanian and Belorussian Tatar names end in -icz.

    Anyway, like I said, in Poland, if you show East Baltic or Uralic traits, then everyone automatically assumes Mongol admixture brought in by Tatars.

  3. #43

    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Don't see much of a link between Yaver and Avar. The name was probably Jawernicki, but I don't see any real link in Polish between Jawer and Avar. Moreover, all Lithuanian and Belorussian Tatar names end in -icz.

    Anyway, like I said, in Poland, if you show East Baltic or Uralic traits, then everyone automatically assumes Mongol admixture brought in by Tatars.
    I think he spelled it starting with a "Y". My point was that his ancestors came from within Poland but were Ukranian and he, himself, believed he was descended from "Mongols". He did not look like a Mongol but it has been a long time.

    Personally, I believe that North East Europeans are full Europeans and none of their alleged physical differences from Western Europeans are of Mongol origins. I think those that envoke this as an explanation are just taking the easy way. I do believe in the Ladagon race as a race which lived in that location for a very long time. How else do you account for the type skulls at Lake Ladago? Eastern Europeans do have different pigmentation and some facial differences with Western Euopeans. Genetics shows they have little admixture from the outside in comparison to Western Europeans. These Ladagons may have lent some of this uniqueness to both the East Baltics and Hallstatt Nordics.

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    Don't see much of a link between Yaver and Avar. The name was probably Jawernicki, but I don't see any real link in Polish between Jawer and Avar. Moreover, all Lithuanian and Belorussian Tatar names end in -icz.

    Anyway, like I said, in Poland, if you show East Baltic or Uralic traits, then everyone automatically assumes Mongol admixture brought in by Tatars.
    Like me, although my name I was told sounded like Kurakavish, but on the way here they changed it to Locovitch.. A Polish Genealogist told me it was probably Kurkowicz, what do u think Polak?

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    Personally, I believe that North East Europeans are full Europeans and none of their alleged physical differences from Western Europeans are of Mongol origins. I think those that envoke this as an explanation are just taking the easy way. I do believe in the Ladagon race as a race which lived in that location for a very long time. How else do you account for the type skulls at Lake Ladago? Eastern Europeans do have different pigmentation and some facial differences with Western Euopeans. Genetics shows they have little admixture from the outside in comparison to Western Europeans. These Ladagons may have lent some of this uniqueness to both the East Baltics and Hallstatt Nordics.
    You are right.

    Personally, I believe that North East Europeans are full Europeans and none of their alleged physical differences from Western Europeans are of Mongol origins.
    Many think that finns for example are half mongols or 30%,40% or etc..mongols.

    Some other important points to consider about Tat-C: - so called (mongoloid/asiatic marker)

    LATEST RESEARCH REJECTS ASIATIC ORIGIN OF TAT-C
    However, the situation is not as simple as might seem. In reality, recent research indicates that the 'Tat-C' marker could well have been an original Caucasian Paleolithic marker of a Ice Age or Pre-Ice Age population, which spread west, and not east.


    - Even if Tat-C originated in Siberia, this doesn't necessarily mean that it is a Mongoloid trait. As the skeletal evidence has clearly shown, some of the earliest populations of central and western Siberia were not Mongoloid at all, at least in the era prior to the expansion of Mongoloid races from the Far East.
    - Tat-C is associated with both NE Europeans and Arctic Asians. Similarly, haplogroup HG26, ancestral to HG1, is found at very low levels in western Europeans, and relatively high levels in some Mongoloid groups. But this doesn't mean western Europeans are descended from Mongoloids. It means that Mongoloids and Europeans share a common male ancestor, and that a Y-chromosome with a newer mutation came to dominate among western Europeans.
    - There is, contrary to what one would expect if Tat-C was an exclusive Asiatic marker, no north-south frequency gradient of the Tat C allele from the Lapps to the Lithuanians; instead there is a sharp east-west cline both in Scandinavia and on the Baltic area. (Rootsi et al. 2000: 152). In other words, if Tat-C was a purely Asiatic marker, its gradient should run from North to South - but it does not, as even the Kittles report (above) showed.
    - Mongoloid admixture in NE Europe and Tat-C are two separate, not-necessarily related issues. There is no doubt some Mongoloid admixture in NE Europe (as indicated by the presence of low levels of East Asian mtDNA). But, as Professor Villems has pointed out (above), there is reason to question if Tat-C actually originated in Mongoloids. In addition, Tat-C levels are not well correlated with levels of Mongoloid admixture.


    Finally, the reader is referred to a study by Guglielmino et. al., who found that Finns have a maximum 10% "Uralic" admixture, a number obtained by comparing Finns to Europeans and to some majority Caucasoid Uralic-speaking populations. Even this does not imply that Finns are 10 percent Mongoloid, merely that Finns are genetically closer to the Caucasoid component of some of the other "Uralic" groups than are most Europeans.


    The remainder of the paternal line comes from the West. On the maternal side, our genetic history ties us inextricably with the Western Europeans. Estonians have only 0.5% Mongol lineage and the Finns around 1%, with the Sámi showing a slightly larger incidence.


    http://www.white-history.com/finland.htm



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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Svetovit
    Like me, although my name I was told sounded like Kurakavish, but on the way here they changed it to Locovitch.. A Polish Genealogist told me it was probably Kurkowicz, what do u think Polak?
    Sounds like a name from former eastern Polish lands. Most likely from Belorussia. One of your ancestors could be of Tatar origin with a name like that.

    However, in terms of genetics and phenotype that could mean a lot of things. These Tatars we're talking about are mostly Caucasoid, with some East Asian admixture. Their phenotypes include Norid, Armenoid, Dinarid, Baltid, East Baltid, Turanid, Nordid, Uralic, and semi-Mongol. Their genes are actually mostly like those of Slavs (mostly R1a for example), but with more Middle Eastern and east Asian influence. So who knows what your ancestors contributed if they wre indeed these Tatars (who themselves were originally Volga Bolgars).

    Like I said, you look like a Uke. You could alwats go and test your autosomal DNA to see how much East Asian influence you have. That could answer a lot and could be an interesting project for you. Just remeber, even if you do have East Asian admixture, it's not like some sort of disease or anything. There's admixture in all parts of Europe, and we're all still alive and well. Nothing to be ashamed of.

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff
    I think he spelled it starting with a "Y". My point was that his ancestors came from within Poland but were Ukranian and he, himself, believed he was descended from "Mongols". He did not look like a Mongol but it has been a long time.

    Personally, I believe that North East Europeans are full Europeans and none of their alleged physical differences from Western Europeans are of Mongol origins. I think those that envoke this as an explanation are just taking the easy way. I do believe in the Ladagon race as a race which lived in that location for a very long time. How else do you account for the type skulls at Lake Ladago? Eastern Europeans do have different pigmentation and some facial differences with Western Euopeans. Genetics shows they have little admixture from the outside in comparison to Western Europeans. These Ladagons may have lent some of this uniqueness to both the East Baltics and Hallstatt Nordics.

    My point is that the Ladogan type as per Coon did not exist. It's now clear that the skulls found that were thought to be Ladogan were actually within the range of Northeast European Cro-Magnids.

    We also now know that the Lapps are a lot less East Asian than previously thought.

    This doesn't mean that Eastern Europe was not subjected to true influence from the East. The Uralic populations of the north did exist, and their legacy exists today in parts of the East Baltic, and even as far west as Norway, Iceland, and even Scotland. My latest reading on this issue points to the conclusion that these Uralics were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid. Only later did they mix with both these groups.

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    My point is that the Ladogan type as per Coon did not exist. It's now clear that the skulls found that were thought to be Ladogan were actually within the range of Northeast European Cro-Magnids.

    We also now know that the Lapps are a lot less East Asian than previously thought.

    This doesn't mean that Eastern Europe was not subjected to true influence from the East. The Uralic populations of the north did exist, and their legacy exists today in parts of the East Baltic, and even as far west as Norway, Iceland, and even Scotland. My latest reading on this issue points to the conclusion that these Uralics were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid. Only later did they mix with both these groups.
    Lappoid = Ladogan

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    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mannerheim
    Lappoid = Ladogan

    Well yeah, that's true. But the way Coon explained the origin of this group of people was flawed. That's why I'm against the use of the term. It doesn't mean anything.

  10. #50

    Re: Mongol Admixture in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    My point is that the Ladogan type as per Coon did not exist. It's now clear that the skulls found that were thought to be Ladogan were actually within the range of Northeast European Cro-Magnids.

    We also now know that the Lapps are a lot less East Asian than previously thought.

    This doesn't mean that Eastern Europe was not subjected to true influence from the East. The Uralic populations of the north did exist, and their legacy exists today in parts of the East Baltic, and even as far west as Norway, Iceland, and even Scotland. My latest reading on this issue points to the conclusion that these Uralics were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid. Only later did they mix with both these groups.
    "...Ladogan were actually within the range of Northeast European Cro-Magnids."

    Yes, that is exactly what they were but I don't know anyone who said otherwise.

    "......these Urlaics were neither Caucasoid nor Mongoloid.". I have read this also but that statement begs the question. What were they if they were neither Caucasian nor Mongoloid? If they are not a clinal population, in what was are they absolutely different from either of these two? To make such a strong statement, something beyond markers are necessary.

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