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Thread: Church and Kirk

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfarer
    Most of the Celtic population in Scotland are Catholic and not Protestant.
    The great majority of Gaelic-speakers in Scotland now are Protestant Calvinists. However, there are a few islands in the Southern Outer Hebrides which are predominantly Roman Catholic.

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Kristy Hume, being a Hume (and a distant cousin) is obviously Germanic (all Humes are.) The Hume/Home homeland is that of Bernicia on the eastern Borders: part of old Northumbria (the Anglo country.) I think the evidence tends towards supporting the idea that Scotland (as Ireland) is as Germanic as Celtic - Brittany and Wales are probably far more Celtic (but, still fairly Germanic.)

    Also, let's take the Scottish religion into consideration. Presbyterianism was founded by Calvin basically and Knox to some degree. John Calvin was a Frenchman. The church of England is the Anglican church. Espiscopalianism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism are not Scottish religions. So it would seem to me that even the Scottish religion would seem to point at the Celtic-Norman thesis or direction.
    Big drift in logic here: *Anglicanism* is English, Episcopalianism is Scottish. The Scottish Episcopal Church being the remnant of the older Scottish religious system before John Knox (who was a great persecutor of Scots - he killing and torturing Scottish Episcopalian laity wherever he found them, seized their churches, and deporting their clergy to the Americas whenever he caught them). That a very few Anglican parishes were established in Scotland does not change the essentially, and originally Scottish character of the Episcopal Church - those few Anglican parishes followed the Presbyterian practice and theology more closely. The Scottish Episcopalians, however, kept the older forms of worship at least until the Non-Jurors, and then still retained the older Scottish Ceremonial (which Scottish use the Presbyterians had rejected in full.) This is especially true in Aberdeen and the North-East, where the Episcopalians were the strongest through the persecutions. Scottish Episcopalianism and Scottish Catholicism are far more Scottish and authentic to Scotland than Presbyterianism. (I should point out, American Episcopalianism is the daughter of the Scottish Episcopal Church, rather than the Church of England - as one can see by tracing the history of their Books of Common Prayer. Also, note who it was that consecrated Seabury and the first American PECUSA bishops - the Scots.)
    Last edited by Vestmannr; Tuesday, December 27th, 2005 at 12:57 AM.
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran Fendigaid
    Kristy Hume, being a Hume (and a distant cousin) is obviously Germanic (all Humes are.) The Hume/Home homeland is that of Bernicia on the eastern Borders: part of old Northumbria (the Anglo country.) I think the evidence tends towards supporting the idea that Scotland (as Ireland) is as Germanic as Celtic - Brittany and Wales are probably far more Celtic (but, still fairly Germanic.)



    Big drift in logic here: *Anglicanism* is English, Episcopalianism is Scottish. The Scottish Episcopal Church being the remnant of the older Scottish religious system before John Knox (who was a great persecutor of Scots - he killing and torturing Scottish Episcopalian laity wherever he found them, seized their churches, and deporting their clergy to the Americas whenever he caught them). That a very few Anglican parishes were established in Scotland does not change the essentially, and originally Scottish character of the Episcopal Church - those few Anglican parishes followed the Presbyterian practice and theology more closely. The Scottish Episcopalians, however, kept the older forms of worship at least until the Non-Jurors, and then still retained the older Scottish Ceremonial (which Scottish use the Presbyterians had rejected in full.) This is especially true in Aberdeen and the North-East, where the Episcopalians were the strongest through the persecutions. Scottish Episcopalianism and Scottish Catholicism are far more Scottish and authentic to Scotland than Presbyterianism. (I should point out, American Episcopalianism is the daughter of the Scottish Episcopal Church, rather than the Church of England - as one can see by tracing the history of their Books of Common Prayer. Also, note who it was that consecrated Seabury and the first American PECUSA bishops - the Scots.)
    [...] or have an agenda. The Church of Scotland (C of S, also known informally as The Kirk; until the 17th century officially the Kirk of Scotland) is the Christian national church of Scotland. It is a Presbyterian Church, decisively shaped by the Scottish Reformation. Just because a form of Scottish Episcopalianism which has some of it's states of affairs in common with Presbyterianism by design exists -- doesn't make it the official church of Scotland. Likewise Catholicism was a Jacobite Tudor-esque phenonemon and ended with Bonnie Prince Charlie's failure. If anyone has a problem with logic it's you not me.

    Kirsty Hume is part of the Scots 'Norman' tribe and Vanessa Redgrave is part of the 'Saxon' tribe. That's the main difference we've been discussing here [...] The Scottish 'The Declaration of Arbroath' shows that of 6th April 1320 A.D, the Scots knew who they were. Scottish identity as distinct from English identity started with William the Conqueror who only made it part way up the island. The people he deposed intermarried with some of the rulers of the Scottish tribes who then came to call themselves kings and queens of Scotland. http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba27/ba....html#driscoll indicates that the final British kingdom was absorbed into Scotland in 1114-1118.
    Last edited by Aeternitas; Wednesday, December 28th, 2005 at 11:05 PM. Reason: ad hominems removed.
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker
    [...] or have an agenda.
    My agenda is the Truth, and standing up for my Clans. And - it doesn't change the fact that the Scottish Episcopal Church predates the Continental Presby Kirk in Scotland: and in fact, has been far more a preserver of Scottish culture at home and abroad.

    Quote Originally Posted by NewYorker
    The Church of Scotland (C of S, also known informally as The Kirk; until the 17th century officially the Kirk of Scotland) is the Christian national church of Scotland.
    Doesn't change the fact that the Presby Kirk was imported, unlike Scottish Episcopalianism - which was native. The status of the Presby Kirk as 'state church' has always been an iffy one: the Scots nation never unanimously adopted the Presby faith, and its success had mostly been due to reeducation of children. In any case, at present it is hardly a 'national' Church - any guess as to how many Scots are actually practicing Presbyterianism? A small percentage, IIRC. I wouldn't call the 'Jacobites' a 'phenomenon' either: we're still here, and in Alba.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker
    [...]
    Again with the ad hominem... the 'Norman' contingent in Scotland is mixed with the genetic material of Angles, Britons, Gaels, Norse, etc. Kristy Hume, again - my kin, is of a type one can find on both sides of the border.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker
    The Scottish 'The Declaration of Arbroath' shows that of 6th April 1320 A.D, the Scots knew who they were.
    I'm a direct descendant of the man who carried it to the Pope - 'Scottish identity' even in the Declaration of Arbroath is as a composite nation: men of Galloway, Highlanders, Angles, Normans, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Yorker
    Scottish identity as distinct from English identity started with William the Conqueror who only made it part way up the island.
    That's novel - what of Kenneth MacAlpin? 'Scottish identity' was established that early, but in development well into modern times. One should remember - it was the Presby Kirk that affected the Act of Union. It happened on 'their watch', so to speak.

    The rest of your material is disjointed, and immaterial to your argument.
    Last edited by Aeternitas; Wednesday, December 28th, 2005 at 11:07 PM. Reason: ad hominems from quotes removed.
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    I have a question. Can someone tellme the difference between Presbytarian and Episcopalian churches? I thought it just had to do with the way the Kirk is administered rather than anything theological.
    I ask because from what i can see here in Scotland nobody talks about being Prebytarian or Episcopalian but just protestant or Catholic. I dont think many people see it as being different in any real way other than just the name of the particular protestant church.

    As for the question of relogious makeup of Scotland here is the 2001 census in scotland that deals with religion
    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00398-01.asp

    I scanned through it quickly and i dont think it says about actual Church attendances however people who consider themselves Christian make up 65% of the population, Catholic are 15.88% of the population. Those with no religion make up 28% (more atheists in Scotland than Catholics ) and a further 5.5% not answering. Bear in mind ethnic minorities make up only 2% of Scotlands population so their religions like Islam, Sikhism are irrelevant here.
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    There are theological differences between Episcopalianism and Presbyterianism - mostly in the area of comprehensiveness (Episcopalianism being a 'Via Media' between Rome and Geneva). The few Anglican parishes that were absorbed into the Scottish Episcopal Church in the 19th c. were probably indistinguishable from Presbyterians in form of worship, and theology (being staunch Calvinist as well, and foregoing the BCP.) The native parishes of the Scottish Episcopal Church, however, have always been to the more 'orthodox/catholic' theology and practice never having the Puritan influence that the Presbyterians and Anglicans (for the most part) imbibed. What we call 'High Church' and even 'Anglo-Catholic' in England was a revival there, but in Scotland it was a survival (though more advanced due to the Non-Jurors being far more successful in Scotland than England). See "Traditional Ceremonial and Customs Connected with the Scottish Liturgy" by F. C. Eeles F.R.Hist.S., F.S.A. Scot., Longmans, Green and Co., 1910 and "A Church for Scotland" by Gerald Stranraer-Mull.

    Much of the what Scottish Episcopalianism (the Whusky Kirk) preserves, is in fact the old Scottish Catholic ways before the Romans began to enforce Italian customs in most of the local churches.

    Modern Scottish Catholicism is in fact more 'Irish' in a modern sense (though not Celtic, but rather Italian/Franciscan). Scottish Presbyterianism has a severe rejection of tradition that either requires one to either ignore most of Scottish history, or the most extreme flights of fancy to construct some 'Proto-Presbyterians' in the past. Those are the major three Scottish Christian denominations, however - all just as Scottish (just as the Scottish Quakers and Scottish Methodists are just as Scottish.)
    Last edited by Vestmannr; Tuesday, December 27th, 2005 at 10:16 PM.
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran Fendigaid
    John Knox (who was a great persecutor of Scots - he killing and torturing Scottish Episcopalian laity wherever he found them, seized their churches, and deporting their clergy to the Americas whenever he caught them).
    Where did you read this rubbish?

    On the contrary, Charles II tried to force Episcopalianism on Scotland. These were the "killing times", when those who would not conform (known in Scotland as Covenanters) were hunted down, tortured and killed; churches had to use the Episcopalian mode of worship, so Covenanters met in the hills. Soldiers roamed the country searching for these meetings, and anyone proven (and in many cases, not even that) to have attended could be executed, not just ministers. For example two women were drowned at Wigtown because they wouldn't attend Episcopalian services, but instead went to the hill meetings.

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran Fendigaid
    Blood was spilled on both sides. The persecution of the Episcopalians was heaviest after 1688 - but had gone both ways. The Presbyterian ascendancy was not a one time event (of the late 17th c.): it occurred a couple of times (and was accompanied by the greatest pro-English sentiment, and rejection of Scotland's long-standing friendship with France, Norway, etc.) The Covenanters (whom I also count as ancestors) were not persecuted during the 17th c. merely for theology, but because they were also lawless and responsible for acts of violence and destruction. (Did not the first sermon of John Knox lead to the sacking of the Scottish church he preached in, the destruction of their ornaments, etc.? )
    No doubt some degree of mob violence occured from those supporting the Presbyterian side, but Charles II and the Episcopalians were responsible for a calculated, government persecution which not only banned them from using churches, but hunted, killed and tortured those who worshipped elsewhere; and yes, it was definitely for their theology. Some were however, in addition falsely accused of lawless or rebellious acts, but large numbers were killed purely on the grounds of non-conformity.

    As for John Knox's supposed killings, you may be thinking of the murder of Cardinal Beaton. There is no foundation for the idea that Knox was responsible, and indeed he wasn't killed for being Roman Catholic, but for the burning to death of a number of men who had dared to criticise the degenerate Roman Church, and question it's spiritual authority.

    Also, congregations sometimes destroyed the idols (crucifixes etc.) in their churches.

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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    No doubt some degree of mob violence occured from those supporting the Presbyterian side, but Charles II and the Episcopalians were responsible for a calculated, government persecution which not only banned them from using churches, but hunted, killed and tortured those who worshipped elsewhere; and yes, it was definitely for their theology.
    Objectively - no, it makes it about their politics, not their theology. The main issue being Church government, who was going to have power, and the distribution of wealth: not theological items. Theology, rather, was used as an excuse (and a thinly veiled excuse - as the argument begin with social/political/economic statements, and ended with social/political/economic solutions.) The Presbyterians did the very same things to the Episcopalians and Catholics (and later to other Protestant sects.) In either case, there was violence on every side during the 16th-17th c. Presbyterian violence was no less, and no more justified (though far more destructive to the cultural heritage, infrastructure, and family societies). With the most famous, the Cameronians, it was very good socio-political causes which made the government hunt them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhydderch
    Some were however, in addition falsely accused of lawless or rebellious acts, but large numbers were killed purely on the grounds of non-conformity.....Also, congregations sometimes destroyed the idols (crucifixes etc.) in their churches.
    The historical record does not have it as congregations, but small groups of people committing the lawless, criminal, and rebellious acts of defacing and destroying churches. Using the term 'idols' is a polemical term, as any objective study of Catholicism (or Episcopalianism) cannot justify the idea of images being used for latreia (worship) which would be idolatry (rather, doulia.) There are historical accounts of members of the congregations being attacked and even killed for defending their sacred places. It should be noted that at the time of the Scottish Reformation, the majority of Scots were with the Episcopalian party of the Scottish Kirk, and that rather through re-education, their children and grand-children were 'won over' to Presbyterianism (some parishes not coming out of Presbyterianism to Episcopalianism even til the 1920s.)

    And - again, the idea of images as 'idolatry' was an idea being borrowed from the iconoclastic religion (Judaism primarily, which Nestorianism and Islam had also borrowed from.) Iconoclasm meaning 'destruction of the Image', and being contrary to the Levitical commands to make images (such as those of the angels on the Tabernacle, the Mercy Seat, etc.)

    As for John Knox's supposed killings, you may be thinking of the murder of Cardinal Beaton.
    No, I'm not referring to Cardinal Beaton. Though, Knox did retire to Beaton's castle in the aftermath (which by law makes him an accomplice.) Killing was done by Knox's teaching after the first sermon he made at St. Giles - historical fact. It is also historical fact that Knox made one attempt to claim he had not wished the violence, nor intended for the destruction of the churches across Scotland. However, it was an early disclaimer, and not one he repeated. Knox is, to use a 'modern term', an instigator: he would in any modern court be easily convicted of knowingly fomenting violence and criminal vandalism.

    There is also plenty of evidence to suggest those in England and Scotland which adopted Presbyterian (Extreme Protestant) ideas (especially the leaders) had done so not with a view against the corruption which existed in their local Catholic churches, but rather because it was a convenient way to seize wealth for themselves. This theory is supported by the fact that the common man's life was not elevated, but in most cases worse than it had been before the Presbyterian/Puritan ascendancy. The same can be said of the Moderate Protestants - whose main argument, again, was not theological; but rather, primarily whether the Pope had power over temporal government or not. We do know, however, that at the time of the two Presbyterian victories within the Protestant Church of Scotland, the majority of the laity were still on the side of the Moderate (episcopal) party - and that it took a few generations of education and missionary work to make the Extreme (presbyterian) party also the majority (and, it was never quite permanent or thorough, as many things survived which were decried by the Presbyterian leaders.)
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    Re: Question : Is Scotland Germanic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bran Fendigaid
    Objectively - no, it makes it about their politics, not their theology. The main issue being Church government, who was going to have power, and the distribution of wealth: not theological items.
    The issue of Church government is largely a theological one. Christ is clearly the head of the Church, not the Pope or king Charles, and one minister should not have spiritual power over another just because he's a bishop; no mortal man is infallible, so one man's conscience should not be obliged to submit to another's. The Covenanters objection was that the Episcopalian system was unbiblical. Besides, there was a lot more to this than church government.

    Now if it was all about power and wealth, why would someone risk his life preaching in the hills as an outlaw, when he could have had a comfortable life, with a respectable status in society (quite possibly as a bishop), simply by conforming to the Episcopalian mode? Indeed some churchmen did do this; their desire for a comfortable life etc. was more important to them than loyalty to Christ.

    But in the case of the Roman Catholic and Episcopalian parties, it was indeed power and wealth which, in general, motivated them. No ruler has greater power over men than one who has control of their consciences, and who can act on their superstitions; and of course that hierarchical system lent itself to having very wealthy men at the top.

    The historical record does not have it as congregations, but small groups of people committing the lawless, criminal, and rebellious acts of defacing and destroying churches.
    What historical record? I'm sure the Episcopalians made some effort to justify themselves, even if it involved false accusations.

    Using the term 'idols' is a polemical term, as any objective study of Catholicism (or Episcopalianism) cannot justify the idea of images being used for latreia (worship) which would be idolatry (rather, doulia.)
    Bowing down to an image makes it an idol. Of course I'm well aware that people consider the image to be just a representation of God or a saint; but the same applies to the idols of any religion; they are considered representations, not actual gods.

    It should be noted that at the time of the Scottish Reformation, the majority of Scots were with the Episcopalian party of the Scottish Kirk, and that rather through re-education, their children and grand-children were 'won over' to Presbyterianism (some parishes not coming out of Presbyterianism to Episcopalianism even til the 1920s.)
    All Scots were, prior to the Reformation, Roman Catholic or at least Roman Catholicised. Obviously they must have been later 'won over' somehow.

    And - again, the idea of images as 'idolatry' was an idea being borrowed from the iconoclastic religion (Judaism primarily, which Nestorianism and Islam had also borrowed from.) Iconoclasm meaning 'destruction of the Image', and being contrary to the Levitical commands to make images (such as those of the angels on the Tabernacle, the Mercy Seat, etc.)
    "They changed the glory of the incorruptible (God) into an image made like corruptible man, and four-footed beasts and creeping things" This verse from the Bible is clearly condemning the use of images representing God, for the purpose of aiding worship.

    The godly man Aaron fell into the mistake of allowing the Israelites to make a golden calf to represent the God who brought them "up out of the land of Egypt". God punished Israel for this.

    The idea that it's alright to venerate images is essentially a Roman Catholic one, borrowed from the pagans; now perhaps you approve of that, but either way it is contrary to biblical teaching.

    It is also historical fact that Knox made one attempt to claim he had not wished the violence, nor intended for the destruction of the churches across Scotland. However, it was an early disclaimer, and not one he repeated. Knox is, to use a 'modern term', an instigator: he would in any modern court be easily convicted of knowingly fomenting violence and criminal vandalism.
    The best thing to do is read what he said. He didn't preach violence and vandalism, nor foment it by his words.

    There is also plenty of evidence to suggest those in England and Scotland which adopted Presbyterian (Extreme Protestant) ideas (especially the leaders) had done so not with a view against the corruption which existed in their local Catholic churches, but rather because it was a convenient way to seize wealth for themselves.
    The most convenient way to do that would have been to join with them, besides saving yourself the pain of torture or death; if someone wants wealth, he'll want to save his own life first.

    This theory is supported by the fact that the common man's life was not elevated, but in most cases worse than it had been before the Presbyterian/Puritan ascendancy.
    What do you mean by 'elevated'?

    We do know, however, that at the time of the two Presbyterian victories within the Protestant Church of Scotland, the majority of the laity were still on the side of the Moderate (episcopal) party
    What is the relevance of this?

    - and that it took a few generations of education and missionary work
    And the blessing of God. Such success did not occur in other countries where the same doctrines had sprung up.

    In marked contrast Episcopalianism did not flourish in Scotland even though its proponents attempted to enforce it with terror.

    to make the Extreme (presbyterian) party also the majority (and, it was never quite permanent or thorough, as many things survived which were decried by the Presbyterian leaders.)
    I'm sure they did. Heresy has always been a problem in churches.

    The Presbyterian church is not "Extreme Protestant". Rather, Episcopalianism in Britain is/was a less extreme form of the unbiblical Roman Catholic system, which is why many Protestants objected to it.

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