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Thread: Genetic History of Europe (Y-Chromosome)

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    Member Klegutati's Avatar
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    Re: Genetic History of Europe (Y-Chromosome)

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaico View Post
    Sincerely, I have no idea. I assume they descend from the population that took refuge in Iberia, but you should ask someone better informed.
    I think it's remarkable that the only major haplogroups from Central Asia/ southern Siberia in the Upper Paleolithic in Europe are R1b and R1a.. N is the other, but it isn't as common.. Q and R are brothers from P, the original South Siberian mammoth hunters..
    Wielki i starożytny rodzaj, wy zgnietliście podstępnych wrogów. Z starożytną mistyczką może, złączoną byłam waszymi hałasami..

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    Re: Genetic History of Europe (Y-Chromosome)

    ...

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    Account Inactive Huzar's Avatar
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    Genetic structure of Europe

    I start with posting some maps................


    Y- chromosome







    mtDNA haplogroups:








    Differences between Europeans and non-europeans.






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    I've never liked that map, why do they separate R1a & R1b but not the highly differentiated I1a & I1b? (They just clump them all as I)

    I1a:


    I1b:


    I1b2a:

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    Senior Member teutonicscult's Avatar
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    Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-

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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-
    Exactly !

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    Senior Member kingdans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-
    Is it the current view that I1 is cro-magnon, or is that what you're referring to as being outdated information?

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    Like I said in the other thread, the idea that R1b is Indo-European is highly unlikely in light of the fact that the Basques (the only Western-Europeans speaking a non-Indo-European language) have the highest amount of R1b in the world.

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    Senior Member kingdans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anlef View Post
    Like I said in the other thread, the idea that R1b is Indo-European is highly unlikely in light of the fact that the Basques (the only Western-Europeans speaking a non-Indo-European language) have the highest amount of R1b in the world.
    I think I agree with you on that one, though this guy makes a good argument:

    source: http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...?t=2890&page=3

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo
    The reason some geneticists believe R1b is the aboriginal W. Euro y-haplogroup comes down to a single people: the Basques.

    Historians in the 18th and 19th centuries were proposing that the Basques represented the remnants of the original native Western European population. That thinking has persisted. So, when it was discovered that the Basques are mostly (although not entirely) R1b, geneticists leapt to the conclusion that R1b is the aboriginal Western European y-haplogroup. It seems they did not stop to consider whether or not the original premise concerning the Basques was correct in the first place. They also apparently did not stop to consider whether or not the Basques have always been mostly R1b.

    As Ellen Levy Coffman has pointed out on the Rootsweb DNA List (her soon-to-be published paper deals with this topic) the Basques are not the pristine, isolated, aboriginal European population some consider them to be. Studies of ancient mtDNA from an old Basque cemetery revealed the presence of a mixture of mtDNA haplogroups and a connection to the Middle East. That connection does not exist for y-haplogroup R1b, however.

    The old Basque marriage custom of the groom coming to live with the bride's family is tailor-made for the introduction of outsider y-dna and the simultaneous preservation of the bride's language and culture.

    If Basque R1b represents the aboriginal W. Euro y-dna, it seems incredible that nowhere else in Western Europe, with its overwhleming level of R1b, was any similar non-Indo-European speech preserved. How odd.

    Not in insular Ireland or even the fastnesses of the Scottish Highlands or the Swiss or Bavarian Alps.

    Weird, huh?

    The Basque language has been classed by some linguists as a member of the Dene-Caucasian language family, a controversial viewpoint. If true, it would seem likely that the Basques were not originally R1b.

    I believe the unquestioning acceptance of an old, wrongheaded, 18th and 19th century tautology (i.e., that the Basques are the aboriginal W. Europeans) has led to the current misunderstanding of the place of R1b in the prehistory of Western Europe.

    Another problem with the current state of genetics papers in Western Europe is that none of them is value neutral. Everything is political. There is a certain amount of political capital for Irish researchers and others to maintain that the y-dna that predominates in Ireland has always been there. It is more appealing to some to think their ancestors are the longsuffering "natives" than to admit they might be relative newcomers in Western Europe. Such a view is also much more in keeping with the current fashion for political correctness than the old, traditional idea that the ancestors of most Western Europeans arrived as Indo-European invaders from the East.

    At any rate, a better understanding of the Basques, their dna, and their place in European prehistory should help clear things up.

    It would also be wise for researchers to remember that the Basques are an extremely small ethnic minority in Western Europe. It was never a good idea to base theories about the single most prolific y-haplogroup in Western Europe upon such an exceptional group.

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    Senior Member Archeopteryx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-
    If you look at the thread before you, you will see that it was posted in 2007. So yes it is now out of date.

    You can't ascribe a particular prehistoric human to a y-haplogroup. There were Cormagnids who were R1a as well as I1 and R1a and possibly other extinct haplogroups. The upperpaleolithic peoples of Europe might have been predominantly one type of haplogroup but never exclusively just that haplogroup.

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