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Thread: Questions for Agrippa....

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    Question Questions for Agrippa....

    Dear Agrippa what do you think about that:a man or woman can have the prevailing body type of a race but the form of arms and fingers (or legs)of another?

    I explain better... It's possible have stocky and thickset build (shoulders,trunk and legs)of a Borreby or Brunn together with leptosomic (or gracile) constitution of arms and hand's finger of Nordid (or Mediterranid) race?

    Moreover: is a chin short and pointed a "Borreby" (or Brunn) characteristic?
    Is a quite deep (and quite broad) lower jaw a Borreby or Brunn characteristic?

    How is,for your point of view,the average "modern"stature of: Borreby, Faelid, Brunn, Nordid, Dinarid, Alpinid, Mediterranid, etc.? Moreover,do you consider,brunn and faelid/dalofaelid the same?

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    Re: Questions for Agrippa....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    Dear Agrippa what do you think about that:a man or woman can have the prevailing body type of a race but the form of arms and fingers (or legs)of another? I explain better...It's possible have stocky and thickset build(shoulders,trunk and legs)of a borreby or brunn together with leptosomic (or gracile)costitution of arms and hand's finger of nordid(or mediterranid)race?
    In fact every combination is possible, some are just significantly less likely. You can find f.e. Leptosomic or just skinny (for other than constitutional reasons) individuals with very broad-robust bones, it looks less harmonic then since the "bones stick out". The same is true for very skinny people of all races, but whereas f.e. a normal Mediterranid Asthenic (pronounced Leptosomic) might still look harmonic a very Asthenic Borreby might look like "more starving". Thats especially visible if looking at the shoulders of woman f.e.

    Moreover:is a chin short and pointed a "borreby"(or brunn)characteristic?
    No, its most often correlated with Mediterranid, partly Nordid and certain Alpinoids. But it depends on the exact form of the jaw.

    I spoke about that in this thread: Classify Carolina Winberg

    Two examples:

    Nordid+Mediterranid form:



    Different form in many (not all) Cromagnoids and its derivatives:




    Its typical that both jaw forms appear in both otherwise typical forms, but as a tendency its clear in my opinion.

    Is a quite deep(and quite broad) lower jaw borreby or brunn characteristic?
    Its a Cromagnoid characteristic and therefore typical for both since Borrebies are a brachycephalised-brachymorphised Cromagnoid derivative. Usually Dalofaelid chin-jaw region is sharper, better drawn.

    How is,for your point of view,the average "modern"stature of:borreby,faelid,brunn,nordid,dinarid,a lpinid,mediterranid,etc.?
    Well, their is constitutional variation in all racial types, both because of admixture and real variation which was present even in the most pure groups of the respective race. But the typical form is mostly grouped around a certain body type variation. I describe the most typical forms.

    In general Nordids (Skandonordid) are usually Leptosomic (from Asthenic to Athleto-Leptosome), typical Athletics or Pyknics are seldom, but getting fatter in age is not necessarily excluded obviously, especially nowadays.

    Dinarids are basically similar, but more often coarser and with a stronger tendency towards Athletic body build.

    Typical Mediterranids (Gracilmediterranid) are more Leptosomic-Mesosome (less muscular, softer than Athletic in my scheme, Mesosome is the true medium form whereas Athletic has a tendency on its own - muscular), so they lack they coarse-robust tendencies of the former but are basically in the same range, though with a stronger tendency towards softened, even more obese features than the former.

    Dalofaelids are more between Leptosome-Athletic to Pyknic, a wider range with an Athleto-Leptosome to Athletic center. More than the other types their actual appearance depends more on the way of living thats even more true for

    Borrebies/Nordalpinoids which have a rather Pyknoathletic centre and can look heavy-strong Athletic to unshaped obese depending both on individual variation and they way of living. Our current way of living is not good for them, they get obese to easily and dont move enough. Many men in the "world strongest" contests are Borrebies typically. They are strong but not agil nor endurant.

    Alpinids (Westalpinid) look like their infantile-reduced counterpart, they are centered around the soft Pyknic body build but can have rather small-gracile Mesosomic individuals quite often too - going fluently over in small-gracile Asthenics. Soft-small is the best way to describe them whether they are stocky-broad or gracile-small-short build. What they mostly lack are the Leptosomic peak types - the tall, sinewy Leptosomic, especially in their youth sharp featured individuals, so typical for Nordids and related progressive forms.

    Moreover,do you consider,brunn and faelid/dalofaelid the same?
    It is the same.


    In the German terminology of v. Eickstedt Nordid consists of Nordid in the narrower sense (Teutonordid or Skandonordid), Fennonordid (or Eastnordid) and Dalofaelid (or Cromagnid). So Coons "Nordische und Bruenns" means Skandonordid (Nordid narrower sense) and Dalofaelid.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Saturday, December 17th, 2005 at 07:49 PM.
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    Re: Questions for Agrippa....

    Sorry Agrippa,a last question about the second point...So do you think that often cromagnoids leptomorphized(for example Brunn or borreby+nordid or mediterranid)can have(following the form of lower jaw)chin short and pointed?
    And do you think,that often mediterranids,some nordids and some alpinids can have that form of chin and lower jaw,or anyway that tendencie?
    Sometimes,i have noted,borrebies or brunn/dalofaelid with more sharp chin and lower jaw;cromagnoids(dalofaelid or borreby)mix with scandonordid or gracilo-mediterranids with chin short(and pointed);some alpinids with sharp lower jaw and well developed chin and some alpinids not with the same characteristic...;or atlanto-med with chin short or atlanto-med with well developed chin...

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    Re: Questions for Agrippa....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd
    Sorry Agrippa,a last question about the second point...So do you think that often cromagnoids leptomorphized(for example Brunn or borreby+nordid or mediterranid)can have(following the form of lower jaw)chin short and pointed?
    And do you think,that often mediterranids,some nordids and some alpinids can have that form of chin and lower jaw,or anyway that tendencie?
    Sometimes,i have noted,borrebies or brunn/dalofaelid with more sharp chin and lower jaw;cromagnoids(dalofaelid or borreby)mix with scandonordid or gracilo-mediterranids with chin short(and pointed);some alpinids with sharp lower jaw and well developed chin and some alpinids not with the same characteristic...;or atlanto-med with chin short or atlanto-med with well developed chin...
    Since the BASIC constitutional type is both inherited and already determined in early youth it influences many aspects of the body. One result is that Asthenics (extreme Leptosomics) have weaker bone structures than their especially Athletic counterparts which results in a weaker bone-jaw-chin quite often as well. So a typical Asthenic will have - more often - a stronger "Vogelprofil" ("bird profile" - "beaked/pointed facial profile") with a more prominent nose and a weaker lower facial part if compared with other constitutional variants of the same racial type.

    Furthermore there are many factors which can lead to different jaws, individual variation, even pathological developments and mutations.

    However,
    often cromagnoids leptomorphized(for example Brunn or borreby+nordid or mediterranid)can have(following the form of lower jaw)chin short and pointed?
    Sure.

    And do you think,that often mediterranids,some nordids and some alpinids can have that form of chin and lower jaw,or anyway that tendencie?
    In general yes though I'd say that its hard to speak about something without examples you know...probably you mean something different than I do.

    Sometimes,i have noted,borrebies or brunn/dalofaelid with more sharp chin and lower jaw;cromagnoids(dalofaelid or borreby)mix with scandonordid or gracilo-mediterranids with chin short(and pointed)
    Makes sense. Though Nordids have a higher and more positive pointed chin than Mediterranids which have a medium high, positive and pointed chin more often.

    ;some alpinids with sharp lower jaw and well developed chin and some alpinids not with the same characteristic...;or atlanto-med with chin short or atlanto-med with well developed chin...
    As I said quite often, Alpinisation is in most areas a tendency and we can assume to see a decreasing degree of bony robustness if following the tendency which leads to stocky, small, short extremities, soft body and infantile characteristics as extreme result which most normal Alpinids dont reach though fortunately.
    Robust, more unreduced Alpinoids going in a Borreby direction should have higher and more pronounced jaws obviously.
    In typical reduced Alpinids I saw the tendency of pronounced constitutional variants quite often, as I said, without the healthy medium and peak forms quite often. With the extremes of Pyknics having stronger chins and Asthenics very weak ones, resulting in more "feminine" and less sharp profile than in Nordid Asthenics, since they mostly lack the prominent-longer nose and typical Vogelprofil.
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    Re: Questions for Agrippa....

    In this thread rough pictures of body forms and racial relations are shown and related links posted:

    Leptomorphic body from an evolutionary perspective


    Two (male and female) schematised pictures of balanced Leptosomics which come close to young and pronounced Nordids in my opinion too though many might deviate more in the Athletic-Mesomorphic direction than the male example.

    And I added sketches for showing the Europe if excluding the very reduced-infantile variants.

    Four young males: 1. Pyknoathletic (approaching a Borreby or heavy build Baltid), 2. Leptosomic, Sinewy Leptosomic form, 3. Athletic, 4. Pyknic. Just rough sketches I know:






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    Last edited by Agrippa; Saturday, December 17th, 2005 at 11:36 PM.
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    I can't help but notice that you often ignore that a brunn type exists.

    Quote:
    Moreover,do you consider,brunn and faelid/dalofaelid the same?
    It is the same.
    If it's the same why are there still some who use this term? And why do people find differences between Dalo-Faelid and Bruenn?

    I have often seen somewhat an infantalised type that some call reduced brunn:




    Could they be classified as Alpinid? However Coon described Alpinid's contribution to the british isles to be insignificant and that the alpines which are found in small amount in mostly London, were brought in by the Romans.

    I dont buy Coon's theory about every overgrown, large scale Nordoid being automatically "Upper Palaeolithic", which almost nobody else believed in neither
    It helps me to identify a bruenn because to me a bruenn looks like someone who's mouth has been smashed with a pan to retain that flattish appearance. :-/


    Some of the so called Bruenn types look more like a Cromagno-nordid/atlanto-med derivation.
    for eg:


    I also most of the time notice a relatively larger nose-tip to lip distance in Bruenns. Probably this is partly accentuanted by the fact that it is common for this type to possess an upturned nose.

    Agrippa I would be very thankful if you were to shed more light into this topic.

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    I can't help but notice that you often ignore that a brunn type exists.
    I don't ignore the type, I just ignore the bad term and definition.

    Out of G. Glowatzki:


    Bruenn is a very bad term, chosen by C.S. Coon for his longer headed "Upper Palaeolithics". Most of which are Cromagnoid, yet the prehistoric Bruenn main element was Aurignacoid. So it starts bad with the term, which makes only sense if you say modern Bruenn = Sapiens-Neandertaloid hybrid, whats ridiculous, but was his understanding, now we know better.

    So most variants people usually still name "Bruenn" are simply Cromagnoids. Now Cromagnoids can be mainly distinguished after coloration, region and details, headshape.

    In the Northern sphere all light pigmented Cromagnids with a medium-longer head are Dalofaelid or simply Cromagnid.

    I have often seen somewhat an infantalised type that some call reduced brunn:
    Reduced Cromagnoids go in the West parallel to Alpinisation:
    Dalofaelid/Cromagnid - Borreby/Nordalpinoid or Cromagno-Alpinoid - Alpinid

    In the East a similar reduction and infantilisation took place, often with additional stronger Borealisation or Mongoliform tendencies:
    Dalofaelid/Cromagnid - Westbaltid/Balto-Cromagnoid - Baltid - Eastbaltid

    Could they be classified as Alpinid? However Coon described Alpinid's contribution to the british isles to be insignificant and that the alpines which are found in small amount in mostly London, were brought in by the Romans.
    Alpinisation was in most parts of Europe a process, the process can start and stop at every stage. Nobody who ever saw larger numbers of British people can deny a present tendency of Alpinisation, even if the result being often still more longheaded or robust than what we see in typical Westalpinids, be it due to mixture which happened as well, or "incomplete Alpinisation".

    Those are, in any case, no longer Cromagnid/Dalofaelid, Nordid or Mediterranid variants, if talking about those people in question which can be seen in relatively large numbers - probably nowadays their numbers increased relatively due to negative selection in the last generations.

    t helps me to identify a bruenn because to me a bruenn looks like someone who's mouth has been smashed with a pan to retain that flattish appearance. :-/
    To me that are often the results of a possible mixture of large-robust Nordoids with Cromagnoid.

    I might also add, that there are types and subtypes.

    F.e. Skandonordid, Eastnordid and Nordatlantid are considered by myself just subtypes (so did others, if they distinguished at all) of Nordid.

    "Bruenn" can be, in any case, no type on its own independent from the classic scheme.

    Most of those which are considered "Bruenn" are regional variants of a more protomorphic oversized Nordid variant, often with Akromegaloid tendencies or Cromagnoid admixture.

    The big rest are regional variants of Cromagnid, which most authors would put into the basic Cromagnid/Dalofaelid category.

    I dont think there is something independent of signficant outside of the classic scheme which deserves the category of a type on its own.
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    Thank you very much Agrippa.. I think that pretty much covers up the doubts on the 'Bruennid'.

    Do you feel the same way about the term Keltic nordic? Coz I don't see you using that term either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teutonicscult View Post
    Thank you very much Agrippa.. I think that pretty much covers up the doubts on the 'Bruennid'.

    Do you feel the same way about the term Keltic nordic? Coz I don't see you using that term either.
    Well, I use it to describe distinctive phenotypes, which are all essentially Nordid or Nordid with Dinaroid influences tendencies.

    "Keltic Nordic" is essentially quite similar to "Baskid", its a category which doesnt deserve subtype but variant.

    Keltic Nordic is a variant of Skandonordid, Baskid of Atlantomediterranid, which became influenced by or more similar to Dinaroids.

    This thread might be interesting for you too:
    My basic classification system for Europids


    Climatic zones:
    Racial Specialisations and Climatic Zones


    Also from older posts:
    What does a basic racial typology describe in Europe?

    I think a 5-7 race scheme is enough to describe the basic variation inside of Europe, the most important evolutionary tendencies, specialisations, races are mainly that and can change over time.

    My explanation would be as follows, there are basically 6-7 tendencies in Europe and we just see varying degrees and intermediate forms of them. But there can be more than one reason for that pattern, just to mention some:

    a) the simplest is (sub-)racial mixture.

    b) an evolutionary tendency can occur in various areas, but with a different specific direction, just parts of a type could have been realised for various reasons:

    -) the selective pressure in the direction of a type was there but not strong enough, so certain features were never selected or it would have need more time

    -) the pressure became too weak or changed before the type was fully realised

    -) the direction of the selective pressure changed after the type was realised - a typical form existed but was altered by changing conditions afterwards

    etc.


    So the types represent the "ideal goal" of a typical European evolutionary tendency which can be realised fully, partly, can be intermediate between two or more forms. In that way those which represent the typical or even extreme form of a tendency are "pure" phenotypically, those which deviate for whatever reason in another direction are "mixed" - crucial are those inherited features which are important for the specialisation and therefore the definiton of a type, an evolutionary tendency.

    About which influences might have played a role in forming the various subracial tendencies in Europe I already wrote various posts on this board, so I dont want to repeat it know, but just to discuss about the basic tendencies and relations.

    I made a rather rough and simplified graphic to illustrate what I mean, I didnt mentioned all variants I know of and some positions had to be a compromise - simply because of the limits of this simple 2dimensional graphic. As European I consider the basic circles of Nordid, Cromagnid, Dinarid, Mediterranid, Osteuropid and Alpinoid. The best representative form in the centre of the subrace is in brackets. Again this scheme is not meant to be perfect, but just a good illustration of some basic relations in Europe which I have in mind:



    Between Mediterranid and Dinarid "Baskid" could be placed, between Dinarid and Alpinoid "Carpathid".

    Because Skildur asked on Skadi about Nordid-Osteuropid relation in this graph I added:

    The transition from Nordid to Mediterranid is very important and reflects basically a dichotomy of robust and gracile forms in the Leptodolichomorphs of Europe. In terms of general specialisation its clear that both robust Mediterranid (Atlantomediterranid) and Dinarid forms are closer to Nordid than Baltid proper.

    But you must read it right, because Cromagnid can be included at least in Nordoid, what could be pointed out too. So there are two relations of Nordids, one to the other leptomorphics, one to the other forms of the North. The 2nd is represented by the Nordid transition to Cromagnid (f.e. Trönder). The transition between Nordid and Osteuropid was not possible in this graphic and as I said its far from perfect. The correlation between Cromagnoid and Mediterranoid was not to make as well if showing all primary correlations and types as well (Southern Cromagnoids: Berberid).



    But it would be basically like that: Nordid (Skandonordid) - Eastnordid - West Baltid/Eastcromagnoid (beginning of Osteuropid) - Baltid - Eastbaltid (ending of Osteuropid) - Lappoid. The connection to Nordid is not direct, but just through the "Nordic (Nordoid) connection" with Cromagnids - which are, in terms of specialisation, much closer to Baltid proper than standard Nordids.

    A connection to the Nordoid Cromagnids is clear since West Baltid/Eastcromagnid is Nordoid Cromagnid too and between Dalofaelid and Baltid. As are Borrebies between Cromagnid and Alpinoid...

    So there the basic poles (6) in Europe and fluent transition between them both due mixture and intermediate evolutionary positions I'd say.
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