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Thread: Traditionalism and Ethnopluralism

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    Traditionalism and Ethnopluralism

    Ethnopluralism is one of the most promising trends in modern "right-wing extremism" (though there is nothing necessarily "right wing" about it. In the anti-development "left" there is an understanding of how modern capitalism destroys indigenous cultures, and an understanding that it is negative. Rodolfo Stavenhagen and his concept of ethno-development is a good starting-point för those interested in that trend. "Leftist" movements like Black Panther Party and Nation of Islam also believed in the idea of separation, often to the point of cooperation with White separatists).

    Summarized, ethnopluralism is based on the idea that no one ethnic group is more valuable than another (ethnic group is usually defined with a bio-cultural basis), and that they all have a right to life and existence. The diversity of many ethnic groups is something worth preserving.

    Ethnopluralist thoughts are present among many individuals and organizations today, the Swedish National Democrats are one example. The most prominent thinker appears to be Richard McCulloch.

    The basic thoughts of ethnopluralism find strong support in most religious traditions. Hinduism bases its caste-system in part on the need to preserve biological and cultural diversity (Alain Danielou explains in Virtue, Success, how it especially protects weak and vulnerable races from competition). There is also an ethnipluralist core in Islam, demonstrated in this quote:

    "O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you" (Quran 49:13)

    Many Muslims interpret this in the way that if Allah created many nations, their existence must be something positive. Of course there is a paradox in Islams praxis of expansion of one language and one religion though.

    The same core thought is very evident in traditional Catholicism (anyone interested should just do a search on the threads started by Taras Bulba), and expressed by the new Pope.

    A couple of differences
    However, ethnopluralism and traditionalism are not identical. Tradition views nationality as a natural fact, with a right to life (somewhat like Bakunin). This does not mean that the national state is traditions ideal political organization. Instead, that is the Empire, where many nationalities are united under an Emperor, and the higher ideals and spirituality that he is a bridge to. It is clear that, especially for Evola, the most inspiring aspect of European history is the pan-European, pan-Imperial, brotherhoods, like the Templars and the SS. Men from many nationalities uniting to fight for the same cause.

    At the same time one should remember that traditional Empires rarely extinguished nationalities. It is with the coming of nineteen-century nationalism that struglles about official languages, resources and so on emerged in them and led to their fall.

    Etnhopluralism might also lead to ethnomasochist extremes, as exemplified by the question of a European Reconquista. An extremist ethnopluralism (like the one of deBenoist it seems) makes both repatriation and assimilation impossible.

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    Not surprised to see Oskorei writing about this kind of weirdness in such positive words.

    I'm no fan of this thing called Ethnopluralism. Not at all actually. I find the thougt of this, in my oppinion, very simplistic and naive policy sort of daunting and unhealthy.

    What were you going to do? Travel around the world and get the leaders to sign a contract saying "Stay away from my country and my people and I'll stay away from yours!". If so, would you honestly trust them to keep such a promise and not breaking the contract? I mean, would you actually trust a N*gro to stay in Somalia, would you actually trust a Jew to stay in Israel? Would you trust a Jew not to attack your people at any time?
    If you lived door-to-door with a N*gro you knew had a gun, would you still feel safe and thinking he would never pass your doorstep in order to kill you or "just" rob you? I mean, you've actually signed the contract for neighborliness, and so has the N*gro.....

    Ethnopluralism might be a nice idea in theory, but it would never work in practice. I live by the fourteen words, and thus there is no room for underestimating or think plenty of other races in terms of not being a possible threat. Such thinking would be dangerous.
    A democracy is nothing more than mob rule,
    where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%.

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    I have to agree here. Three or four years ago, I must say, I was quite positive about the concept of "ethnopluralism" myself, then not being a young adult with pragmatic logic, but being a youth with many ideals, and perhaps a little naive about things.

    The problem is not the idea in itself - the problem is in the very nature of, well, nature. As it is, resources and living space are not spread proportionately between nations, therefore there will always be conflict to ensure that if it is necessary. If it is not necessary, it is perhaps unneeded imperialism indeed, but if it is, it is the most natural of all strides.

    Assume I had sign a contract with Poland to respect their boundaries. Then my people are beginning to starve, as the German potato harvest is no longer enough to feed all Germans, with let's say all agriculturally usable space having already been taken. Do I let my people starve simply for an artificial construct of respecting my neighbour's territory?

    No, I take into mind what is necessary to ensure my folk's survival and well-being and consider taking some living space from them. In a world, where there are relatively few arable areas that have not yet been exploited, it is only natural that such measures sometimes necessary for survival of the folk will have to come at the detriment of another nation.

    In the search for a reasonably humane method of how we construct our states in the future, there is always going to be much philosophy involved, there is going to me much over-rationalisation involved. What many of those ideas fail to see is that nature is not always aligned as we would wish it to have; therefore any ideology that would suppress some of the most natural of strides is doomed to fail and be harmful to the folk in the long run.

    Ethnopluralism in its pure form is one of those over-rationalised romantic concepts which fail to take into account certain natural realities, and thus potentially harmful. Easy as, sounds nice on paper, but has no chance of working out in reality except at our own detriment.
    -In kalte Schatten versunken... /Germaniens Volk erstarrt / Gefroren von Lügen / In denen die Welt verharrt-
    -Die alte Seele trauernd und verlassen / Verblassend in einer erklärbaren Welt / Schwebend in einem Dunst der Wehmut / Ein Schrei der nur unmerklich gellt-
    -Auch ich verspüre Demut / Vor dem alten Geiste der Ahnen / Wird es mir vergönnt sein / Gen Walhalla aufzufahren?-

    (Heimdalls Wacht, In kalte Schatten versunken, stanzas 4-6)

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    It's been some years since I saw this thread; I think my views have changed somewhat.

    I don't think ethnopluralism is an ideal at all, but rather the result of an observation. It's the anthropological and cultural equivalent of both realism and multipolarity in international relations or of Ranke's vision of history in which every epoch is 'immediate to God'. It's not a very new idea either. Of course we see it in Herder, but also in the racial psychology of L.F. Clauss. The general idea originates in the awareness of our epistemilogical limitations: from a human perspective it is impossible to rise above our racial/cultural/ethnic differences and therefore any hierarchy among nations can only be established by God, the sole entity that transcends these differences. To an extent even Alfred Rosenberg adhered to this position and it has been mentioned in a document as official racial policy of the third Reich. That this position means abandoning the interests of your own people for the sake of some romantic ideal is easily proven false by considering Huntington's thesis of a Clash of Civilizations which was based on something that might be called 'civilizational pluralism'.

    As to the opening post, I think it is wrong to call Evola an ethnopluralist and it is equally wrong to posit the idea of the Empire as the sole political framework for ethnopluralism. Ethnopluralism can just as well be the source of inspiration of nationalism. Furthermore, the pluralism of the Empire is limited by the adherence to a common idea embodied by the emperor. As for Evola, any pluralism that is visible in his ideas is subordinated to a universal dualism of civilizations (see his criticism of Spengler) and is above all a result of a hierarchical division of the different races.

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