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Thread: English, Dutch, German : more Celtic than Germanic

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    Re: English, Dutch, German : more celtic than germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by WolfSSangel
    I think that Germanic languages are from both Celtic and Latin words.
    The Germanic languages come from, funnily enough, Germanic words.

    All you are proving with your lists is that Latin, Gallic, and Germanic all have cognate words, which is entirely expected seeing as they all evolved from the same language; Indo-European.

    The main difference between the Celtic expansion and the Germanic ones, was that of colonisation. The Celts seemed to be very adept at conquering a native population, and enforcing their own culture, language and values onto them. Hence why the Celtic influence spread so quickly, over such a wide area.

    Germanic conquests, on the other hand, always tended to be less successful at enforcing their own culture on the natives. The only Germanic conquests that became permanent (ie: England and her later colonies) were where the Germanics physically replaced the natives. In areas where the Germanics conquered (ie: almost all of Europe and N.Africa during the Volkerwanderung) and emplaced themselves as a ruling elite, they were eventually absorbed and assimilated into the local population.
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    Re: English, Dutch, German : more celtic than germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamopy
    All you are proving with your lists is that Latin, Gallic, and Germanic all have cognate words, which is entirely expected seeing as they all evolved from the same language; Indo-European.
    That's one reason, however another reason is that in early times, the Celts had a strong influence on the Germanic people, and many words in the latter group's languages are of Celtic origin.




    The main difference between the Celtic expansion and the Germanic ones, was that of colonisation. The Celts seemed to be very adept at conquering a native population, and enforcing their own culture, language and values onto them. Hence why the Celtic influence spread so quickly, over such a wide area.
    Again, I think the difference here is that the Germanic spread occured much later in history, when Europe was more civilised, with a much higher population. The Germanic peoples imposed themselves on populations which were more highly cultured (or at least equal) than themselves, and numerous. Whereas to a large extent the Celts were, at least in Western Europe, more cultured and had technology able to support a higher population, than those they conquered.



    Germanic conquests, on the other hand, always tended to be less successful at enforcing their own culture on the natives. The only Germanic conquests that became permanent (ie: England and her later colonies) were where the Germanics physically replaced the natives.
    I think there is a different reason for England becoming Germanic-speaking. I'll get round to posting my theory on an appropriate thread.

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    Re: English, Dutch, German : more celtic than germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    my problem with your statement is that you denie that west-europeans are Celts

    I may agree with you that the Celts are not aryan : Cavalli and others wrote that the indo-european languages originated with the HG3 people (east-europeans)

    so basically it means the Celts were a non-aryan people who adopted an aryan language
    But, I have a book for 'The Aryan Race'. My book say, Celts are the Aryans.

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    Re: English, Dutch, German : more celtic than germanic

    Quote Originally Posted by WolfSSangel
    But, I have a book for 'The Aryan Race'. My book say, Celts are the Aryans.
    Too late, dude, too late.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm View Post
    according to dna studies the English, Dutch and Germans have more Celtic ancestors than germanic ancestors.

    the first inhabitants of England, Holland and Germany were mostly Celts. When the germanic tribes from Scandinavia/North-Germany invaded these area`s they spread their germanic languages but did not replaceme the ancient celtic populations.

    Scandinavia = mostly germanic blood

    England, Holland, Germany = mostly celtic blood

    as you see languages and race dont have to go hand in hand
    Now to clear things up. Nope. The modern English, Dutch, German (especially North German) are now essentially Germanic, though they do have Celtic admixtures. The most common Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in England is R1b-S21/R1b-U106("Germanic") which also common across the North Sea in the Netherlands and Denmark. The frequency of the I1 Y-DNA haplogroup in East England is as high as in Scandinavia.

    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm View Post
    "A new survey of Y chromosomes in the British Isles suggests that the Anglo-Saxons failed to leave as much of a genetic stamp on the UK as history books imply1.

    Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.

    But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily."

    from http://www.nature.com/nsu/030616/030616-15.html

    and:
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf

    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf

    Its also quite obvious when looking at the populations, especially the English and Dutch generally have much darker hair than Scandinavians but also the Germans are darkerhaired than Scandinavians.

    Scandinavians are the real Germanics

    The Dutch, English and Southern-Germans are predominant of celtic blood with a minority of germanic blood

    Northern-Germans have more germanic blood. An estimate would be 50 % celtic - 50 % germanic for them
    The Dutch hair colour average is somewhat darker-haired and darker-eyed than that of Scandinavians, however blond hair is still a very common hair colour in the Netherlands and the most common eye colour is blue. 60% of the Southern Dutch have blue or green eyes, while 76% of the Northern Dutch have light eyes. The Dutch from the Groningen and Friesland provinces are as light as Scandinavian since 81% in Groningen province have light hair (blonde+light-brown) and 83% light eyes.

    In terms of being Germanic, the Dutch are the most Germanic people of Europe, surpassing even Scandinavians. Having blond hair doesn't make one Germanic.
    Last edited by Juthunge; Friday, March 31st, 2017 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Posts merged. Please don't post 4 posts directly after one another but use the edit function instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm View Post
    according to dna studies the English, Dutch and Germans have more Celtic ancestors than germanic ancestors.

    the first inhabitants of England, Holland and Germany were mostly Celts. When the germanic tribes from Scandinavia/North-Germany invaded these area`s they spread their germanic languages but did not replaceme the ancient celtic populations.

    Scandinavia = mostly germanic blood

    England, Holland, Germany = mostly celtic blood

    as you see languages and race dont have to go hand in hand
    Germans not only have Celtic, but also more Slavic blood than any Germanic people with the exception of the Austrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm View Post
    ofcourse,

    ``A new survey of Y chromosomes in the British Isles suggests that the Anglo-Saxons failed to leave as much of a genetic stamp on the UK as history books imply1.

    Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.

    But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily.
    ``

    from http://www.nature.com/nsu/030616/030616-15.html



    and :

    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf

    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...v290_p1155.pdf



    Its also quite obvious when looking at the populations, especially the English and Dutch generally have much darker hair than Scandinavians but also the Germans are darkerhaired than Scandinavians.

    Scandinavians are the real Germanics

    The Dutch, English and Southern-Germans are predominant of celtic blood with a minority of germanic blood

    Northern-Germans have more germanic blood. An estimate would be 50 % celtic - 50 % germanic for them
    The English are comparable to both Dutch and (North) Germans, not darker as you supposed. Actually the ratio of the Y-DNA haplogroup I1a in East England is similar to that in Scandinavian countries. The most common hair colour in England, the Netherlands, Germany is that of a light brown. Overall, if we combine with reddish hair, England would appear lighter-haired. Darker hair in England is usually linked to recent or distant Welsh, Irish, Highland Scottish ancestry.
    % of blond hair

    Dutch group
    Friesland - 43.2%
    Groningen - 41.3%
    Drenthe - 39.4%
    Flevoland - 35.7%
    Overijssel - 35.5%
    Gelderland - 34.4%
    South Holland - 31.4%
    North Holland - 31.2%
    Zeeland - 28.4%
    North-Brabant - 22.3%
    Limburg - 21.8%

    German group
    Schleswig Holstein - 46%
    Lower Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern - 43%
    Thuringia - 36%
    North Brandenburg, Berlin area - 33%
    Swabia - 32%
    North Rhineland - 30%
    Bavaria - 30%
    Hesse - 22%
    Ruhr - 21%
    Saxony Free State - 20%
    Rhineland Palatinate - 19%
    Baden - 15%-20%
    Frankish Bavaria - 15%-20%
    Lusatia - 15%
    Saarland - 15%

    English group (South-East)
    East Sussex - 44%
    Hampshire - 41%
    Kent - 38%
    Buckinghamshire - 37%
    Berkshire - 34%
    Oxfordshire - 34%
    Isle of Wight - 33%
    West Sussex - 22%
    Surrey - 34%

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm View Post
    I read something from you in another topic Loki :

    ``Recent genetic studies have confirmed that the areas most densely settled by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, namely eastern England, are virtually identical to northern Germany and Denmark``

    This is incorrect.
    Eastern-English are not the same in dna as the Danes. Eastern-English are the same as the Dutch Frisians.

    The Dutch frisians territority in the north of the Netherlands is the part of the netherlands with the most germanic blood, but still this part is majority Celtic blood.

    In the Netherlands and England there are no regions/area`s with a majority of germanic blood. Germanic blood is in all area`s a minority in England and the Netherlands.

    So you mistake the Danes with the Dutch Frisians.

    The dutch Frisians territority is the same in dna as East England. Denmark is very different in dna from East-England and Dutch Frisia.

    Denmark :

    38 % HG1
    40 % HG2

    Dutch Frisia :

    56 % HG1
    28 % HG2

    East-England (York, Norfolk) :

    57 % HG1
    31 % HG2

    Netherlands as a whole :

    71 % HG1
    22 % HG2

    England as a whole :

    68 % HG1
    22 % HG2

    You can clearly see the Dutch and English are very similar in dna (y chromosome) and the Danes are very different from the Dutch and English
    You have a wrong concept of what is meant by being Germanic genetically. You have limited the Germanic people to only one Haplogroup which is utter nonsense! There are subclades of the HG1/R1b which are in the Germanic branch that is R1b-U106. The Germanic people are the result of Germanic mixture of the I1a (Pre-Germanic) and R1b-U106, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, I2b2b-Z161
    Y-DNA haplogroup I1a accounts for;
    Sweden = 40-50%
    Norway = 40%
    Iceland = 40%
    Denmark = 40%
    North Germany = 30%+
    East England = 30%+

    Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b and R1a account for:
    Germany = 60-70%
    England = 50-70%
    The Netherlands = 50-70%
    Iceland = 60%
    Norway = 50%+
    Sweden = 40%+

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Prince View Post
    I Agree.

    First of all, the statement that the Celts once ruled over entire western Europe is ambiguous.

    For the fact that England is more Celtic than Germanic, I don't know.
    On school I learned that only the upperclass became AngloSaxon.
    For a few years ago I read some articles telling 80% in Southeast England is from Frisia/North-West Germany, and 45% to 60% in the rest of England.
    Now its again the other way around.

    cbvnm stated that their was almost no mixing with peoples from Nortwestern Germanic tribes. On the other hand he stated that these Northwest Germanic peoples were just as Celtic as people from Britons from 'Brittania' ( where are these measurements than based upon, the genetic pure Irish and basques?, I think that these peoples are even more mixed by centuries of war/raping/pillaging/enslavery)

    cbvnm also said that the Dutch are darker than the Germans or the Scandinavians( )
    Have you ever been in the Netherlands? I think its very region dependant.
    In Amsterdam people are general darker as the people from the Northern region. And I think that people from Southern-Germany are still darker.
    The Dutch are never darker than the Germans. There are many regions of Germany which are statistically darker than the darkest regions of the Netherlands or England for that matter.
    Baden, Saarland, Lusatia, Ruhr, Frankish Bavaria are all darker than Limburg in the southern Netherlands or West Sussex in southern England.

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    Red hair which was seen as a "Germanic trait" by ancient historian Tacitus is much more common in England than in the Netherlands. Some have linked it to the Celts who lived in Britain long before the Germanics came and others even when as far as to the Vikings.

    % of red hair
    The Netherlands
    Friesland - 2.5%
    Groningen - 2.3%
    Drenthe - 2.0%
    Overijssel - 2.5%
    North Holland - 2.4%
    South Holland - 2.2%
    Gelderland - 2.5%
    Utrecht - 1.8%
    Zeeland - 2.6%
    North Brabant - 2.2%
    Limburg - 3.3%

    (southeast) England
    East Sussex - 9%
    Hampshire - 6%
    Kent - 12%
    Buckinghamshire - 10%
    Oxfordshire - 8%
    Surrey - 3%
    Isle of Wight - 8%
    West Sussex - 11%

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