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Thread: English, Dutch, German : more Celtic than Germanic

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    It is still unknown were the indo-europeans (celts, germanics, slavs, romans etc) came from. Historicists and scientists are still debating about it.

    Untill that time nothing has been proven.

    Even if the indo-europeans originally came from more eastern places, then this doesnt mean West-Europeans are not Celts but paleolithic people

    The Celts have a short recent history. There were no Celts 10000 years ago, the ancestors of the Celts existed 10000 years ago, but the Celts themselves not.

    The Celts originated in Central-Europe in the Bronze Age. Several different tribes mixed with eachother resulting in the end mix called the Celts.

    The first time the Celts were mentioned in history was 1300 BC. This was the first time identifiably Celtic artifacts appear in the upper Danube.

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    I read something from you in another topic Loki :

    ``Recent genetic studies have confirmed that the areas most densely settled by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, namely eastern England, are virtually identical to northern Germany and Denmark``

    This is incorrect.
    Eastern-English are not the same in dna as the Danes. Eastern-English are the same as the Dutch Frisians.

    The Dutch frisians territority in the north of the Netherlands is the part of the netherlands with the most germanic blood, but still this part is majority Celtic blood.

    In the Netherlands and England there are no regions/area`s with a majority of germanic blood. Germanic blood is in all area`s a minority in England and the Netherlands.

    So you mistake the Danes with the Dutch Frisians.

    The dutch Frisians territority is the same in dna as East England. Denmark is very different in dna from East-England and Dutch Frisia.

    Denmark :

    38 % HG1
    40 % HG2

    Dutch Frisia :

    56 % HG1
    28 % HG2

    East-England (York, Norfolk) :

    57 % HG1
    31 % HG2

    Netherlands as a whole :

    71 % HG1
    22 % HG2

    England as a whole :

    68 % HG1
    22 % HG2

    You can clearly see the Dutch and English are very similar in dna (y chromosome) and the Danes are very different from the Dutch and English

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    Welcome to Skadi 1juice!

    I know we have had this discussion before on SF, and I somewhat agree with you, although not entirely, and here is why:

    I think that you have made some good observations in affiliating the European Haplogroups with cultures/peoples/migrations. It is true that the places by which Hg 1 reaches its highest frequency in are generally connected to "Celtic Culture" (and I use the term very vaguely), such as Western Ireland and the British Isles in general, parts of Iberia, as well as in Central Europe. However, the problem is exactly that, in that such peoples are only bound by culture, and not (sub) race. An Irish Bruenn would almost surely show paternal lineages that cluster with Hg 1, although, having said this, the actual lineage would be much deviated from the Hg 1 lineage shown by a Spanish Mediterranean, and to a lesser extent, a German Borreby. My point is, the mutation defining Hg 1 is 23 000 YBP, and, although I think you are correct in identifying the affinity shown with Celtic culture, or what I would deem "Old European," I personally wish to approach things from a less simplistic manner.

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    ``An Irish Bruenn would almost surely show paternal lineages that cluster with Hg 1, although, having said this, the actual lineage would be much deviated from the Hg 1 lineage shown by a Spanish Mediterranean, and to a lesser extent, a German Borreby``

    You are correct when you say the Irish for example are not the same as the Spaniards just because they are both predominant HG1.

    The Spaniards look mostly mediterranean and the Irish look Central-European.

    A possible reason why Spaniards and Basques look darker than the Irish, English, Dutch ETC is because the Spaniards and Basques probably also have a little bit of iberian, north-african or black slaves blood. The iberians were described as swarthy people (probably light brown skinned) and as we all know there is not much black blood needed to turn a whole population a lot darker. This could be a reason why spaniards and basques look much darker than English, Dutch, Irish ETC.

    But dont get it wrong : just because some south europeans have a little bit of non-european blood doesnt mean they are not white anymore. Its only a small percentage and the great majority of Spaniards are white in my opinion despite their small amounts of non-european admixture.
    (after all, all Europeans have a little bit of non-european blood, even the Swedes)

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    First you claimed that Celts as a cultural and linguistic unit were Paleolithic. I then pointed out that Hallstatt and La Têne Celtic cultures were quite recent, and that there is no record of Celts in Britain before around 600 BC. You didn't really address that. Paleolithic and Aryan are by definition mutually exclusive. Aryans were Indo-Europeans who originated at a very specific time and place in S. Russia/Ukraine/West Asia. Almost all NW Europeans are non-Aryan in the true sense of the word. This doesn't mean they are 'darker' or 'less white,' just that they are pre-Indo-European. The Basque and Pictish languages/cultures are both examples of what existed in NW Europe before the IE migrations in the late Mesolithic or early Neolithic. The claim that Aryans are Paleolithic is ridiculous. Claiming that the darker HG1's are Negroid is equally absurd. The Basques have no Negroid admixture indicated. Recent Moorish contributions in the South are an entirely different issue. The dark Upper Paleolithics are Cro-Magnids who possess darker pigmentation than the Brünns, that's all there is to it.

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    Stribog :

    so you claim the only Europeans that are aryan are the East-Europeans

    in other words : Scandinavians are not germanic, Central-West Europeans are not Celtic and South-Europeans dont possess Roman blood ?

    All history books are wrong?

    dont you think this is a ridiculous view yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbvnm
    Stribog :

    so you claim the only Europeans that are aryan are the East-Europeans

    in other words : Scandinavians are not germanic, Central-West Europeans are not Celtic and South-Europeans dont possess Roman blood ?

    All history books are wrong?

    dont you think this is a ridiculous view yourself?
    The Europeans with the most direct Aryan ancestry are Russian, Byelorussian, Polish, Ukrainian, yes. Germanic is a linguistic grouping rather than a racial grouping. Scandinavia has a fair amount of Aryan blood mixed with the HG1; Germany has somewhat less. Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France and most of Britain have very little. The Indo-European languages outcompeted the more primitive languages spoken by the UP inhabitants of Western Europe and spread to become the dominant languages of Europe, this does not mean that everyone in W. Europe magically became racially Aryan just because they learned an Aryan language.

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