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Thread: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

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    Re: Vernon Presley

    Quote Originally Posted by Appalachian
    Both the woman and her children were from a group of isolated White-Indian-Negro mixed-bloods living in Amherst County, Virginia. They were the subject of a study during the height of the eugenics era in America. There has been some out-mixture in very recent years, but thanks to Virginia's strict racial purity laws in the early half of the twentieth century, the group has remained largely cohesive. This particular woman was noted for being very White-looking and among the more intelligent, productive members of the community.

    Melungeon or one of the others that I've happened upon in my searches? Although I've read recently and I think you mentioned it to our Spanish friend that based on some genetic evidence of late, the Melungeons might actually be partially descended from the Turks and Moors that they've claimed for so long.

    We don't really have much of the "tri-racial isolate" phenomena up here. The closest ones that I am aware of are the Ramapo Mountain Peoplein northern New Jersey and southern New York State--who have been proven, through genealogies to be largely of freed Negro slaves from the New Netherland days--despite their claims of being Indians.

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    Re: Vernon Presley

    Quote Originally Posted by Allenson
    Melungeon or one of the others that I've happened upon in my searches?
    No, these are the Amherst County 'Issues,' so called because they are believed to be the issue of freed slaves and Indians. They are lobbying for recognition, though, as the remnants of the Monacan Indian tribe.


    Although I've read recently and I think you mentioned it to our Spanish friend that based on some genetic evidence of late, the Melungeons might actually be partially descended from the Turks and Moors that they've claimed for so long.
    Yeah, Turks and Moors as well as other Iberian elements. It must be remembered that they have traditionally referred to themselves as 'Portuguese.'


    We don't really have much of the "tri-racial isolate" phenomena up here. The closest ones that I am aware of are the Ramapo Mountain Peoplein northern New Jersey and southern New York State--who have been proven, through genealogies to be largely of freed Negro slaves from the New Netherland days--despite their claims of being Indians.
    Yeah, the 'Jackson Whites' are an interesting group. High rates of genetic anomalies such as polydactyly among them...

    Here's a map you may find interesting. I think he overestimates the extent of some of the territories, but it can still be useful.

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    Re: Vernon Presley

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenlivet
    American southernerns of largely British Isles descent are probably predominantly betwixt and between the definitions of Nordid and Mediterranid (Fleure).]


    [But it is not that simple, I have noticed a lot of Americans (we can also see it in McCulloch work) somehow think British is anthropologically interchangeable with Scandinavian and North German. That is not the case. 100 Irishmen are easily distinguishable from 100 Swedes or upland Norwegians. Furthermore, the variation (especially pigmentation) in phenotype among Brits is simply great. Have you been in the British Isles?]
    A large part of the British settlers in the South came from the southern or west midland counties of England or from Wales. Welsh surnames are more common in the South then in other parts of the U.S. The German settlers in colonial America came mainly from the Palatine. I've noticed a meditteranid phenotype among persons of Pennsylvania German descent, including among the Amish and they have not had an infusion of new blood since coming to America 300 years ago. Many Americans of colonial era British/German descent equate dark eyes and black hair with indian ancestry. I think this is based on an assumption that that the English & Germans were all blond haired & blue eyed. I have done genealogical research on my family and I have been asked many times "what kind of indian are we?" The great-great-grandmother who was supposed to be a fullblooded indian because she had long black hair, turned out to be of German, Swiss & Welsh blood. I did find one indian ancestress, a 14xgreatgrandmother who married a Dutch settler in 1620's New Netherlands. This was my nearest non-european ancestor which make me 16383/16384 parts European or 99.9938965% white. About 86% of my ancestors where living in America at the time of independence (the rest were in Scotland & Germany) so based on my own family history I doubt there is any significant indian ancestry in the overwhelming majority of White Americans of colonial era settlers. Most Americans do not know what indians looked liked. This is Hollywoods fault or it could be because many members of the most famous tribe " The Cherokees" are more white then indian.

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    Re: Vernon Presley

    Quote Originally Posted by Appalachian
    No, these are the Amherst County 'Issues,' so called because they are believed to be the issue of freed slaves and Indians. They are lobbying for recognition, though, as the remnants of the Monacan Indian tribe.
    They're always looking for tribal recognition.




    Yeah, Turks and Moors as well as other Iberian elements. It must be remembered that they have traditionally referred to themselves as 'Portuguese.'
    Port-a-gees.



    Yeah, the 'Jackson Whites' are an interesting group. High rates of genetic anomalies such as polydactyly among them...

    Here's a map you may find interesting. I think he overestimates the extent of some of the territories, but it can still be useful.

    Yeah--Jackson Whites is another name. And, I've read about their six and seven fingered hands.

    The map is interesting--I've never heard of the Bushwackers and other groups down along the Hudson.
    Last edited by Allenson; Friday, December 9th, 2005 at 08:57 PM.

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    Re: Vernon Presley

    I have something to add to this discussion on Native American-Europid mixing, however we seem to have found ourselfs quite off the topic of classifying Vernon Presley (incidentally: Brünn+Hallstatt, of the Trönder variety).

    Could a mod please split this thread, and create another discussing 'Indian'-European genetic drift.
    Last edited by Bismark; Saturday, December 10th, 2005 at 04:25 AM.
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    Re: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

    In discussing the North American case of gene flow between natives and European immigrants we must first realize certain facts that pertain to the discussion.

    1.The two populations have been residing in close proximity for nearly 400 years. Initially the natives out numbered the colonials considerably. Given the sheer number of natives, it would be by chance alone, more likely that Euro immigrants selected a native mate, than another immigrant. However, human mate selection is not based on chance alone; it is based very much so on culture, particularly in Caucasian, and Mongoloid populations. The immigrants' European based cultural restricted gene flow, as did the native populations' culture, though to a lesser extent. While both of their cultures restricted gene flow, neither severed it. There have been many accounts of kidnapped, and fugitive 'whites' becoming fully assimilated into 'Indian' tribes. We also have knowledge of 'Indians' being 'civilized' and incorporated into 'white' settlements. It is important to establish what the views of these of these colonials were in regards to aboriginal North Americans. They are often called savages. This tells us two things; firstly, unlike African slaves of the time considered sub-human, and more closely related to apes by the vast majority, Indians are considered savages, and therefore humans, not animals; secondly, a savage may be 'civilized' (Christianized), and accepted as part of the colonial community. We can hypothesize, and history confirms this, that converted natives were on occasion selected as mates be the more liberal 'whites', and the frequency of this increased over time.

    2. Restricted Indian gene flow did not occur in all European immigrants. The French and Spanish interbred with 'Indians' far more often than did any other European cultures. This can be attributed to the goals of the French, and Spanish in the new world. Unlike the Dutch, English, Irish, Scotch, Welsh, and German immigrants, the goals of French, and Spanish 'immigrants' initially were not to colonize North America, but to exploit it for personal gain; gold in the case of the Spanish, furs in the case of the French. As such we see very few women and children coming over on Spanish, and French ships, we see mostly merchants (France > Spain) and Soldiers (France < Spain). Naturally, limited by few females of their own culture, mate selection for these men took place largely amongst the native populations. This can be seen largely in the 'Latin American' genome in the case of the Spanish. And in the many French-Canadians, and Cajuns who claim partial decent from 'Indians'.

    3. The Old West during it's colonization had a severe prejudice against 'Indians'. They were deeply loathed and feared for the raids they committed, and the raids they didn't commit, but were assigned guilt for. On the social and legal aspects they were placed with 'Mexicans' (often Spanish speaking natives, occasionally of Spanish decent), above 'Negroes', but below 'whites'. Do to this the west has not seen as much gene exchange between 'whites' and 'Indians' as the east, until about the last century.

    4.In this discussion we cannot travel west of the Mississippi River, without discussing the (then) territory of Oklahoma. Oklahoma was the American governments attempt at consolidating, and isolating what was left of the Eastern native tribes. In the early 1800's most Eastern tribes were relocated here, so in this area we see a large portion of 'whites', and 'Indians' of mixed ancestry.


    ... More to come, have to leave the office for home now, so I'll have to write this in two segments.
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    Re: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismark
    1.The two populations have been residing in close proximity for nearly 400 years. Initially the natives out numbered the colonials considerably
    I'll wait until you write again (as you said that you would) but I wanted to comment on this statement....

    Given this fact presented above--and also that not only were these two populations cohabitating on this continent but there was/is another in our midst--I have found it remarkable and actually a testament to the cultural barriers of our colonial forbearers, that there is not more admixture than there is. Thankfully for me, my English and Dutch (Yankee and Yorker) ancestors brought their families with them.

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    Re: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismark
    1.The two populations have been residing in close proximity for nearly 400 years. Initially the natives out numbered the colonials considerably.
    The two populations lives apart. There was no integration in early America. They may have traded with each other but they lived in seperate towns. What is now the United States was populated with between 1 & 2 million Indians at the start of the 17th century. That is less then 1 per square mile. European settlement started at the coast and quickly spread inland displacing the Indians. The Indians were unable to stop this advance because they were outnumbered. I think most persons think of White/Indian relationships as being White Man/ Indian Woman. Why would the Indians give their women in marriage to the Whites. That would lead to a shortage of brides for Indian men. There were a few marriages between White men & Indian women in the early days of the Virginia & New Netherlands colonies, but these were to establish relations between the two groups & the brides were usually the daughters of Chiefs. (Pocahontas in Virginia, Catoneras in New Netherlands.)

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    Re: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

    To gauge accurately the amount of Indian blood in the veins of the white population of the American continent and to determine to what extent the surviving aborigines have in them the blood of their conquerors and supplanters is impossible in the absence of scientific data. But there is reason to believe that intermixture has been much more common than is generally assumed. The Eskimo of Greenland and the Danish traders and colonists have intermarried from the first, so that in the territory immediately under European supervision hardly any pure natives remain. The marriages (of Danish fathers and Eskimo mothers) have been very fertile and the children are in many respects an improvement on the aboriginal stock, in the matter of personal beauty in particular. According to Packard ( Beach, Ind. Miscel., 69, 1877) the last full-blood Eskimo on Belle Isle Straight, Labrador, was in 1859 the wife of an Englishman at Salmon bay. The Labrador intermixture has been largely with fishermen from Newfoundland of English descent.

    Some of the Algonquian tribes of Canada mingled considerably with the Europeans during the French period, both in the east and toward the interior. In recent years certain French-Canadian writers have unsuccessfully sought to minimize this intermixture. In the Illinois-Missouri region these alliances were favored by the missionaries from the beginning of the 18th century. As early as 1693 a member of the La Salle expedition married the daughter of the chief of the Kaskaskia. Few French families in that part of the country are free from Indian blood. The establishment of trading posts at Detroit, Mackinaw, Duluth, etc., aided the fusion of races. The spread of the activities of the Hudson's Bay Company gave rise in the Canadian Northwest to a population of mixed bloods of considerable historic importance, the offspring of Indian mothers and Scotch, French, and English fathers. Manitoba, at the time of its admission into the dominion, had some 10,000 mixed bloods, one of whom, John Norquay, afterward became premier of the Provincial government. Some of the employees of the fur companies who had taken Indian wives saw their descendants flourish in Montreal and other urban centers. The tribes that have furnished the most mixed-bloods are the Cree and Chippewa, and next the Sioux, of northwest Canada; the Chippewa, Ottawa, and related tribes of the great lakes; and about Green Bay, the Menominee.

    Toward the Mississippi and beyond it were a few Dakota and Blackfoot mixed-bloods. Harvard (Rep. Smithson. Inst., 1879) estimated the total number in 1879 at 40,000. Of these about 22,000 were in United States territory and 18,000 in Canada. Of 15,000 persons of Canadian-French descent in Michigan few were probably free from Indian blood. Some of the French mixed-bloods wandered as far as the Pacific, establishing settlements of their own kind beyond the Rocky Mountains. The first wife of the noted ethnologist Schoolcraft was the daughter of an Irish gentleman by a Chippewa mother, another of whose daughters married an Episcopal clergyman, and a third a French-Canadian lumberer. Although some of the English colonies endeavored to promote the intermarriage of the two races, the, only notable case in Virginia is that of Pocahontas (q. v. ) and John Rolfe. The Athapascan and other tribes of the extreme northwest have intermixed but little with the whites, though there are Russian mixed-bloods in Alaska. In British Columbia and the adjoining parts of the United States are to be found some mixed-bloods, the result of intermarriage of French traders and employees with native women.

    Some intermixture of captive white blood exists among the Apache, Comanche, Kiowa, and other raiding tribes along the Mexican and Texas border, the children seeming to inherit superior industry. The Pueblos, with the notable exception of the Lagunas, have not at all favored intermarriage with Europeans. The modern Siouan tribes have intermarried to some extent with white Americans, as some of their slid in early days with the French of Canada. The Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma--Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creeks, and Seminole, have a large element of white blood, some through so, called squaw-men, some dating back to British and French traders before the Revolution. In the Cherokee Nation especially nearly all the leading men for a century have been more of white than of Indian blood, the noted John Ross himself being only one-eighth Indian. Mooney (19th Rep. B. A. E., 83, 1900) considers that much of the advance in civilization made by the Cherokee has been "due to the intermarriage among there of white men, chiefly traders of the ante-Revolutionary period, with a few Americans from the back settlements." Most of this white blood was of good Irish, Scotch, American, and German stock.

    Under the former laws of the Cherokee Nation anyone who could prove the smallest proportion of Cherokee blood was rated as Cherokee, including many of one-sixteenth, one-thirty-second, or less of Indian blood. In 1905 the Cherokee Nation numbered 36,782 citizens. Of these, about 7,000 were adopted whites, Negroes, and Indians of other tribes, while of the rest probably not one-fourth are of even approximately pure Indian blood. Some of the smaller tribes removed from the east, as the Wyandot (Hurons) and Kaskaskia, have not now a single full-blood, and in some tribes, notably the Cherokee and Osage, the jealousies from this cause have led to the formation of rival full-blood and mixed-blood factions.

    During the Spanish domination in the southeast Atlantic region intermixture perhaps took place, but not much; in Texas, however, intermarriage of whites and Indians was common. The peoples of Iroquoian stock have a large admixture of white blood, French and English, both from captives taken during the wars of the 17th and 18th centuries and by the process of adoption, much favored by them.

    Such intermixture contains more of the combination of white mother and Indian father than is generally the case. Some English-Iroquois intermixture is still in process in Ontario. The Iroquois of St Regis, Caughnawaga, and other agencies can hardly boast an Indian of pure blood. According to the Almanach Iroquois for 1900, the blood of Eunice Williams, captured at Deerfield, Mass., in 1704, and adopted and married within the tribe, flows in the veins of 125 descendants at Caughnawaga; Silas Rice, captured at Marlboro, Mass., in 1703, has 1,350 descendants; Jacob Hill and John Stacey, captured near Albany in 1755, have, respectively, 1,100 and 400 descendants. Similar cases are found among the New York Iroquois. Dr Boas (Pop. Sci. Mo., xlv, 1894) has made an anthropometric study of the mixed bloods, covering a large amount of data, especially concerning the Sioux and the eastern Chippewa. The total numbers investigated were 647 men and 408 women. As compared with the Indian, the mixed-blood, so far as investigations have shown, is taller, men exhibiting greater divergence than women.

    A large proportion of Negro blood exists in many tribes, particularly in those formerly residing in the Gulf states, and among the remnants scattered along the Atlantic coast from Massachusetts southward. The Five Civilized Tribes of Oklahoma, having been slaveholders and surrounded by Southern influences, generally sided with the South in the Civil war. On being again received into friendly relations with the Government they were compelled by treaty to free their slaves and admit them to equal Indian citizenship. In 1905 there were 20,619 of these adopted Negro citizens in these five tribes, besides all degrees of admixture in such proportions that the census takers are frequently unable to discriminate.

    The Cherokee as a body have refused to intermarry with their Negro citizens, but among the Creeks and the Seminole intermarriage has been very great. The Pamunkey, Chickahominy, Marshpee, Narraganset, and Gay Head remnants have much Negro blood, and conversely there is no doubt that many of the broken coast tribes have been completely absorbed into the Negro race.
    http://www.accessgenealogy.com/nativ...ndianblood.htm
    Last edited by Appalachian; Saturday, December 17th, 2005 at 07:41 PM.

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    Re: European/Indian Genetic Drift in the Americas

    It been a long few days (personal matters), I apologize for my delay in finishing my post... Let us continue on,

    5. Europeans have been settling in America for nearly 400 years. We can estimate an American colonials' average age of reproduction at 25 years ( a conservative estimate, women were often married in there mid to late teens, and continued reproducing into their 30's). Infant and child mortality rates were high compared to todays standards, however families were large, and the population increased rapidly. 25 years divided by 400 years, on average 16 generations have passed since Americas initial colonization.

    6. Humans reproduce sexually, so everyone has two parents, the more generations we go back in time the more ancestors we have, so we can determine the amount of ancestors one has from sixteen generations elapsed by the equation 2 to the 16th power= 65,536. Given no inbreeding, in the 16th generation one has 65,536 ancestors. Anyone who claims all, or a majority of their ancestors came over on the Mayflower (102 passengers, Nov. 1620) is lying, stupid, severely inbred, or a combination of the three.

    7. For someone who's ancestors came to America very early in the colonization process the likely hood of having 'Indian' admixture to some degree increases greatly. If all, or a majority of ones ancestors, have been here for 16 generations, it's likely that at least one of those 65,536 was an 'Indian'. Of course likely hood is no guarantee, there are 'whites' who have ancestors that were early colonist, and are of purely European decent, though they are in the minority. Assuming 1 'Indian' ancestor 16 generations ago, that would make the descendant 1/65,536th 'Indian', and 65,535/65,536th European, certainly classifiable as European. It is possible they may not share even 1 gene with that Indian ancestor, 16 generations would at any rate delude those genes greatly if not completely remove them (we receive half of each parents genes semi-randomly).

    8. People lie. If someone claims to be an eighth Cherokee, it does not mean they are an eighth Cherokee, it means they claim they are. Just as someone who claims to be 100% 'white', may not actually be 100% white. Most of the time people are honest with their ancestry to the best of their knowledge, however some do lie. They may lie because they are ashamed of that part of their heritage, or to set themselves apart from others as being more genetically unique. In my observation I've witnessed people claim to be half, a quarter, or an eighth 'Indian' however appear wholly 'white', in many cases I know they are truthfully part 'Indian' by observing their siblings, and parents. One gentleman I know would be a perfect example of Brunn with slight Keltic influence, if I hadn't met his parents, and siblings, and knew he was half Scotch-Irish (Ulster Scots), from his fathers' side, and half Florida Seminole Indian (not to be confused with the Oklahoma Seminoles who have had Negro admixture), on his mothers' side. His pigmentation shows no more of his 'Indian' heritage, than his bone morphology does, he's red haired, brown eyed, and freckled.
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