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Thread: Faustian-Magian (Spengler)/ The Russian Spirit [Jack]

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    Post Faustian-Magian (Spengler)/ The Russian Spirit [Jack]

    Oswald Spengler: Decline Of The West
    Following are the two excerpts from two very prominent and chapters which I took the notes off, initially I had typed in the notes as well. I hope Anarch likes these. I have typed all this text.

    Chapter VIII
    Problems of the Arabian Culture
    THE MAGIAN SOUL

    The world as spread out for the Magian waking consciousness, possesses a kind of extension that may be called cavern-like, though it is difficult for western man to pick up any word in his vocabulary that can convey anything more than a hint of the meaning of Magian “Space.” For space has essentially unlike meanings for the perceptions of the two Cultures. The world-as-cavern is just as different from the world-as-extent of the passionate far-thrusting Faustian as it is from the classical world-as-sum-of-bodily-things.

    The Copernican system, in which the earth, as it were, loses itself, must necessarily seem crazy and frivolous to Arabian thought. The church of the west was perfectly right when it resisted an idea so incompatible with the world-feeling of Jesus, and the Chaldean cavern-astronomy, which was wholly natural and convincing for the Persians, jews, peoples of pseudomorphosis, and Islam became accessible to the few Greeks who knew of it at all only after a process of transvaluing it basic notions of space.

    The tension between microcosm and macrocosm(which is identical with the waking-consciousness) leads, in the world-picture of every Culture, to further oppositions of symbolic importance. All a man’s sensations or understanding, faith or knowledge, receive their shape from a primary opposition which makes them not only activities of the individual, but also expressions of the totality. In the classical the oppositions that universally dominates the waking consciousness is the opposition of matter and form; in the west it isthat of force and mass. In the former the tension loses itself in the small and particular , and in the latter it discharges itself in the character of work. In the world-cavern, on the other hand, it persists in traversing and swaying to and fro in unsure strugglings, and so become that “Semitic” primary dualism which, ever the same under thousand forms, fills the Magian world. The light shines through the cavern and battles against the darkness(John i, 5). Both are Magina substances. Up and down, heaven and earth become powers that have entity and contend with one another. But these polarities in the most primary sensations mingle with those of refined and critical understanding, like good and evil, God and Satan. Detah, for the author of the John Gospel as for the strict Moslem, is not the end of life, but a something, a death force, that contends with a life force for the possession of man.
    ----------

    Chapter IX
    Problems of the Arabian Culture
    PYTHAGORAS, MOHAMMED, CROMWELL

    As every Magian Consensus is non-territorial and geographically unlimited, it involuntarily sees in all conflicts concerning the Faustian ideas of fatherland, mother tongue, ruling house, monarchy, constitution, a return from forms that are thoroughly alien(therefore burdensome and meaningless) to him towards forms matching with his own nature. Hence the word "international," whether it be coupled with socialism, pacifism, or capitalism, can excite him to enthusiasm, but what he hears in that word is the essence of his landless and boundless Consensus. While for the European American, democracy, constitutional struggles and revolutions mean an evolution towards the Civilized Ideal, for him they mean(as if he never consciously realizes) the breaking down of other build that is other than himself. Even when the force of consensus in him is broken and the life of his host people exercises an attraction upon himto the point of an induced patriotism, yet the party that supports is always that of which aims are most nearly comparable with the Magian essence. Hence in Germany he is a Democrat and in England an Imperialist. It is exactly the same misunderstanding, as when West Europeans regard Young Turks and Chinese Reformers as kindred spirits-that is, as, "Constitutionalists." If there is an inward relationship, a man affirms even where he destroys; if inward alienness, his effect is negative even where his desire is to be constructive. What the Western Culture has destroyed, by reform efforts of its own type where it has had power, hardly bears thinking of; and Jewry has been equally destructive where it has intervened. The sense of this inevitableness of this reciprocal misunderstanding leads to the appalling hatred that settles deep in the blood and, fastening upon visible marks like race, mode of life, profession, speech, leads both sides to waste, ruin and bloody excesses wherever these conditions occur.

    This applies also , and above all, to the religiousness of the Faustian world, which feels itself to be threatened, hated and undermined by an alien metaphysics in its midst. From the reforms of Hugh of Cluny and St. bernard and Lateran Council of 1215 to Luther, Calvin and Puritanism and thence to the Age of Enlightenment, what a tide flowed through our waking-consciousness, when for the Jewish religion history had ceased altogether! Within the West European Consensus we see Joseph Qaro in his Schulehan Aruch(1565) restating the Maimonides material in another form, and this could equally well have been done in 1400 or 1800, or for that matter not at all. In the fixity of modern Islam, Byzantine Christianity since the Crusades(and, equally of the life of Late China and of Late Egypt), all is formal and rolled even, not only the food prohibitions, the prayer-runes, the phylacteries, but also the Talmudic casuistry, which is fundamentally the same asthat applied for centuries to the Vendidad of Bombay and the Koran in Cairo. The mysticism, too, of Jewry(which is pure Sufism) has remained, like that of Islam, unaltered since the crusades; and in the last centuries it has produced three more saints in the sense of Oriental Sufism-though to recognise them as such we have to see through a colour-wash of western thought-forms. Spinoza, with his thinking in substances instead of forces and his thoroughly Magian dualism, is entirely comparable with the last stragglers of Islamic philosophy such as Murtada and Shirazi. He makes use of his notions of Western Baroque armoury, living himself into mode of imagination of that milieu so thoroughly as to decieve even himself, but below the surface movements of his soul he remains the unchanged descendant of the Maimonides and Avicenna and Talmudic "more geometrico" methodology. In Baal Shem, the founder of the Hasidim Sect(born in Volhynia in about 1698), a true Messiah arose. His wanderings through the worlds of Polish Ghettos teaching and performing miracles are comparable only with the story of primitive Christianity; here was a movement that had its source in the ancient currents of the Magian, Kabbalistic mysticism, that gripped a large part of Eastern Jewry and was undoubtedly a potent fact in the religious history of the Arabian Culture; and yet, running its course as it did in the midst of an alien mankind, it passed practically unnoticed by it. The peaceful battle that Baal Shem waged for God-immanent against the Talmudic pharisees of his time, his Christlike figure, the wealth of legends that were rapidly woven about his person and the persons of his disciples-all this is of pure Magian spirit, and at bottom as alien to us of the west as Primitive Christianity itself. The thought processes of Hasidic writings are to non-Jews practically unintelligible, and so also is the ritual. In the excitement of the service some fall into convulsion and others begin to dance like the dervishes of Islam. The original teaching of Baal Shem was developed by one of the disciples in Zaddikism, and this too, which was a belief in successive divine embassies of saints(Zaddiks), whose mere proximity brought salvation, has obvious kinship with Islamic Mahdism and still more with the Shiite doctrines of imams in whom the "light of the Prophet" takes up its abode. Another disciple, Solomon Maimon-of whom a remarkable autobiography exists-stepped from Baal Shem to Kant(whose abstract kind of thought has always possessed an immense attraction for Talmudic intellects). The third is Otto Weininger, whose moral dualism is a purely Magian conception and whose death in a spiritual struggle of essentially Magian experience is one of the noblest spectacles ever presented by a late religiousness. Something of the sort Russians may be able to experience, but neither the Classical nor the Faustian soul is capable of it.

    In the "Enlightenment" of the eighteenth century the western culture in turn becomes megalopolitan and intellectual, and so, suddenly accessible to the intelligentsia of the consensus1. And the latter thus dumped into the middle of an epoch corresponding, for them, to the whole remote past of a long-expired sephardic life-current, were inevitably stirred by echo-feelings, but these echoes were of the critical and negative side only, and the tragically unnatural outcome was that a cohesion already historically complete and incapable of organic progress was swept into the big movement of the host peoples, which it shooked, loosened, displaced, and vitiated to its depths. For, for the Faustian spirit, the enlightenment was a step forward along its own road-a step over debris no doubt, but still affirmative at bottom-whereas for Jewry it was destruction and nothing else, the demolition of an alien structure that it did not understand. And this is why we so often see the spectacle-paralleled by the case of the Parsees in India, of the Chinese and Japanese in a Christian milieu, and by modern Americans in China-of enlightenment, pushed to the point of cynicism and unqualified atheism, opposing an alien religion, while the fellah practices of its own folk go on wholly unaffected. there are socialists who superficially-and yet quite sincerely-combat every sort of religion, and yet in their own case follow the food-prohibitions and routine prayers and phylacteries with an anxious exactitude. More frequent actually is inward lapse from the Consensus qua creed-the spectacle that is presented to us by the Indian student who, after an English University-training in Locke and Mill, acquires the same cynical contempt for Indian and Western faiths alike and must himself be crushed under the ruins of both. Since the Napoleonic era the old -civilized consensus has mingled unwelcome with the new-civilized Western "Society" of the cities and has taken their economic and scientific methods into use with the cool superiority of age. A few generations later, the Japanese, also a very old intellect, did the same, and probably with still greater success.

    To this day, the magian nation with its ghetto and its religion, itself is in danger of disappearing-not because the metaphysics of the two cultures come closer to one another(for that is impossible), but because the intellectualised upper stratum of each side is ceasing to be metaphysical at all. It has lost every kind of inward cohesion, and what remains is simply a cohesion for practical questions. the lead that this nation has enjoyed from its long habituation to thinking in business terms becomes ever less and less(namely tha American, it has already almost gone), and with the loss of it will go the last potent means of keeping up a consensus that has fallen regionally into parts. In the moment when the civilised method of European-American world-cities chall have arrived at full maturity, the destiny of jewry-at least of the jewry in our midst(that of Russia is another problem)-will be accomplished.

    Islam has soil under it. It has practically absorbed the Persian, Jewish, Nestorian, and Monophysite Consensus into itself. The relic of the Byzantine nation, the modern Greeks, also occupy their own land. The relic of the Parsees in India dwells in the midst of the Stiffened forms of a yet older and more fellahized Civilisation and is thereby secure in its footing. But the West European American part of the Jewish Consensus which has drawn to itself and bound to its destiny most of the other parts of Jewry, has now fallen into the machinery of a young Civilisation. Detached from any land footing since, centuries ago, it saved its life by shutting itself in the Ghetto, it is fragmented and faced with dissolution. But that is a Destiny, not in the Faustian Culture, but of the Magian.

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    Post The Russian Spirit of Fraternal Brotherhood

    This post is mainly intended for the people who either understand what Spengler has written about the Russians, or know/understand what I mean by 'the Russian spirit of fraternal brotherhood'. Mainly it is intended for Moody, but if anyone else has something to say on the subject, I encourage them to voice their views.

    The Russian brotherhood outlook ('the infinite plain') seems to me not to be an expression of a Culture, but rather the peasant outlook of the Russian that was consistently emphasised under the various names of 'soviet patriotism', 'Eurasianism', 'Holy Russia', etc. - is this a form of Culture Distortion, and is Russia spiritually an Occidental (not nessecarily Faustian, as I doubt one could refer to East European countries as Faustian, but they are certainly part of the European racial-cultural-spiritual unit) nation, or is Russia a seperate Culture altogether, as Spengler (and Yockey) believe it to be? If it is a seperate Culture, nevertheless we of the Faustian West and the Russians share white blood - conflict, given that Western Europe and Russia are close together (true, half of Europe seperates them, but that means little given modern technology), would seem to be inevitable, given the sharply contrasting Russian 'infinite plain' attitude Spengler talks of, when compared with the Faustian 'infinite space' outlook. This would seem to be a sharp and dangerous problem, if it exists. Yockey realised this and openly advocated the Russian 'plain' spirit be crushed immediately by Faustian West Europe, and that Russia as a political unit be dismembered, and that the Russian people should actively be Culturally assimilated.

    Or the third option - is Russia, as America is in relation to Europe, a Culture-Colony of the Faustian West? If so, is Russia part of the core of the actual Occident (Occident as traditional European culture-racial group - the Faustian West is well described in Spengler's Decline of the West), or an auxilliarly attachment? I have a feeling this is a very important issue that needs to be discussed.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Senior Member Jack's Avatar
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    “The Bolshevist Revolution was more than political; it was Cultural. Power was transferred from the Westernised elements in the church, state, army, aristocracy and intelligentsia to a group basing itself on the instinctively nihilistic stratum of the Russian peasant masses. The primitive Russian Soul, unsure of itself, had been forced by the Romanovs and the powerful inroads of German culture in Russia to submit to Westernisation. Consequently, there arose in Russia a dreadful tension of polarity between two Souls, the Western and the proto-Russian. Dostoyevsky’s The Possessed depicts how it fermented nihilistically beneath the surface. It was this underground Russia that, led by the Jewish entity, broke away in 1917 from the West. By 1923, the civil wars had ended, and the Western culture was for the time banished from Russia. A community of destiny with Asia and its revolt against the West, rather than with a Europe whose form-world it had just expelled from Russian soil, more nearly answered the expectations of the new Russia.

    The Russian soul is too virile ever to be strangled by something alien. Hence the Jewish entity, despite the dominant position to which it had attained with the Revolution of 1917, was incapable of maintaining its unconditional rule. The expulsion of Trotsky in 1927 marks the downward turning point for Jewry in Russia.

    And yet the Bolshevist Revolution did not eliminate the polar tension within the Russian soul. So long as the Russian soul, chaotic and full of longing, animated by a strong will yet of weak resolve, exists within the sphere of influence of a Western organism that is conscious of its World-Mission, there will remain in Russia a powerful urge towards reunion with the West. The European Revolution of 1933 found an echo in Russia, and when the European armies entered Bolshevist territory in 1941, they were hailed everyplace there as “liberators”. Marshal Vlasov could have raised armies of millions and affiliated them with the European military forces, but, unfortunately, the European Command did not make use of such aid until it was too late. The possibility indeed exists that a second monstrous upheaval – with a pro-Western Cultural aim – will overthrow the Bolshevist regime. This possibility might be realised either through a renewed Western invasion or through the appearance of a new Peter the Great. It is a further Imponderable. Today Europe must reckon with Russia as part of the Outer Revolt against its World-Mission.”

    - Francis Parker Yockey, The Enemy of Europe, pages 59-60, Liberty Bell Publications Internet edition, 2003
    I think Yockey is on to something. I asked a few questions in Stormfront's Russia section here (I go by the name of Ken at SF), and the answers I recieved seem to fall into line with the idea that Russia is becoming Occidentalised. Thoughts?
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    I don't think this problem problem exists to the degree Spengler thought. Perhaps the Marxist forces affected his judgement on Russia; I don't really get how 'the infinite plain' would suit Russia (I'd rather attach such a symbol to Jewry).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siegfried Aurelius
    I don't think this problem problem exists to the degree Spengler thought. Perhaps the Marxist forces affected his judgement on Russia; I don't really get how 'the infinite plain' would suit Russia (I'd rather attach such a symbol to Jewry).
    I deleted another thread which I (no great loss, no one responded) is similar to what you are saying. It is a conversation with Stribog. Here goes:

    Stribog: hey
    Ken: hi
    Ken: how are you?
    Stribog: i'm good
    Stribog: ive been thinking a lot about the russia issue
    Ken: yeah, what do you think?
    Stribog: its complicated, to say the least
    Ken: yeah, it is
    Stribog: im trying ot think how i want to phrase this
    Ken: ok
    Stribog: i think russia as a massive geopolitical entity covering 1/6 of the world's surface is not the best thing for russia or whites in general
    Ken: That's one way of putting it
    Stribog: i do think there is *some* truth to the brotherhood stereotype
    Ken: I think so too
    Stribog: i have to wonder how much of them running into the arms of the communists was the result of czarist excesses
    Ken: I don't know. The Russians are strange, as far as Europeans go
    Stribog: i know
    Stribog: that's what i am trying to figure out....
    Ken: I was talking to a Russian on stormfront, he says this has largely faded away, now that it has been over three generations since most Russians left the agricultural communes. They are similar to most Europeans, he said - individualist to the point of dyeing their hair and listening to different music, but not as materialist as Americans are
    Stribog: what i wonder is, how different was the russian mindset 100 or 150 years ago
    Stibog: from the average european
    Ken: quite a bit different - around 90% of the Russians were serfs back then
    Stribog: that's my point/question;
    Ken: I don't think the Russian mindset a hundred years ago was that much greater than the European mindset 400 years ago. Maybe they are a European country, just a bit slow
    Stribog: was russia holding on to feudalism so long a CAUSE or an EFFECT of a difference in mentality?
    Ken: I think it was a cause
    Stribog: in that case, then we shouldn't distinguish them from other europeans a priori?
    Ken: or should we distinguish east Europeans from West Europeans a priori?
    Stribog: racially there's not much difference between an English Hallstatt and a Russian Battle Axe
    Stribog: so if there is a difference, i dont think its genetic
    Stribog: the question is, are the bulk of eastern european peasants genetically different from western european working classes?
    Ken: I know, there's Russians at my school who have assimilated to the point that they are psychologically identical with the Anglo-Celt Australians
    Ken: I doubt it. West European industrial classes are descended from West European peasents, remember
    Ken: most of my ancestors were Irish potato farmers before they migrated to Australia
    Stribog: yes i chose working class vs peasant to outline a difference in economic structure, "progress" if you will
    Stribog: rather than an inherent difference
    Ken: Yes, I know what you're saying
    Stribog: so how much of the russian backwards behavior is cultural then?
    Stribog: the atrocities of the advancing Red Army?
    Ken: It was the handful of Italians (and jews) who broke away from the feudal system economically and started trading products for profit, then hiring scientists, developing technology, and so on - Russia began this process later on.
    Stribog: the mass rape thing is disturbing
    Ken: I would say most of it is cultural, if the basics of psycholgy in a society come out of the social system. The Russians still had the peasent mindset when Stalin started industrialising the country - it was less than a generation. The mass rape is disturbing, but Russian soil was, to them, more important than anything else - the German lebensraum idea which Hitler proposed in Mein Kampf was enough to set them off. Regardless of the Russian planned invasion of Europe, the mass rape thing, I would say, was a sort of 'revenge' for violating Mother Russia. As Spengler says, to the peasant, the soil is more important than anything - it is the entire history of his family and people.
    Stribog: do you think any other white or European country's army would ever commit mass rape?
    Stribog: that's what i've wondered for a while
    Ken: If any other European country had its armies drawn from the semi-primative peasantry, and the nation was invaded, and the invaders openly proclaimed for a decade before hand that they wanted to displace the population and/or enslave them? Yes, definetly.
    Stribog: ok, seems plausible
    Tribog: so you believe peasant is the key social distinction here
    Ken: definetly.
    Stribog: so what did yockey believe separated russia from the rest of europe?
    Ken: precisely because of the peasant mentality. Yockey said that the Russian is essentially a barbarian - he is not culturalised, so to speak, similar to the relationship between the Germanic tribes and the Roman Empire
    Ken: but the Russian is white - Yockey makes it quite clear that race is not merely bioligical - it is a biological-spiritual community, and Russians can, and this does happen, assimilate easily into Western societies. The issue is westernising an entire population of 140 million.
    Stribog: well the germans certainly became civilised eventually, so what precludes the russians from doing the same...?
    Stribog: is it just a matter of time and numbers?
    Stribog: he wanted to accelerate it somehow?
    Ken: Accelerate it, yes
    Ken: He said, in "The Enemy of Europe" (I have it) that in the 1950's, the USSR could fall to a pro-Western coup, subtly or openly, and then through universities and so on, the key elements of Russia's population could be westernised. From there, it would've filtered down until the entire population did what the Germans did. Or - Russia could be invaded, politically neutralised, and directly Westernised by Westerners
    Stribog: invasion of russia has never really been feasible, has it?
    Stribog: on a sustained and semi-permanent scale, i mean
    Ken: It is right now, with the exception that Russia doesn't use nuclear weapons
    Stribog: well i assume they would...
    Ken: Napoleon tried it, but Alexander I pulled out of Moscow and left it burning. So yes, it could have been done. Had Napoleon won, Russia would've been Westernised long ago, I think
    Ken: it wouldn't surpise me if they did
    Stribog: were napoleonic values necessarily a good thing?
    Ken: Napoleon wanted to unite Europe into one Empire - where every European, no matter where he went, could still be within his own homeland.
    Stribog: did napoleon write this down anywhere?
    Ken: Certainly
    Ken: Yockey quotes him several times
    Stribog: so yockey views napoleon favorably?
    Ken: I've read about it in my book on European history - "Europe: A History", by Norman Davies.
    Ken: Yockey thought Napoleon was a genius
    Ken: what Alexander the Great was to the Greek-Roman civilization, Napoleon was to the West
    Ken: the key starter in the drive to unify an entire Culture-civilization.

    End of Conversation (My connection died).

    What do you think?
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Very interesting discussion indeed I want to comment as being Russian myself. The core element which was very close to Western countries culturally, racially and spiritually always existed in Russia, well maybe not always but from the times of Peter the Great for sure. So called 'Dvoryanstvo' or nobility or higher classes. They gave the world such geniuses as Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Tchaikovsky etc. 19th century was a 'Golden age' of Russian literature, music, science. But at the same time there was a huge difference between higher classes and peasantry, who were in the position of slaves until 1861. This and the infatuation of nobility or 'Intelegentsia' with the ideas of Karl Marx made the October Revolution possible. The result of that was a massive immigration of 'Intelegentsia' to Europe and US, leaving Russia with no cultural and intellegent basis. Late Tsarist Russia was very close culturally to other western European countries, and who knows if not Revolution we could probably be the leading country right now. But history went a different way, leading peasantry to power, demolishing everything that was achieved before. I would say that right now the majority of Russians, mostly middle and upper classes associate themselves with Europeans and think and act accordingly.
    Now about that rape: first of all its rather difficult to say whether they were ethnic Russians or crowds of 'hachiks' from Caucasus, but there is no evidence that ethnic Russians never comitted such a crime. I would say that the majority of those were 'hachiks', just knowing their percentage in the Red Army of those days and their animal instincts. Most probably Russians from low classes did that as well. But comparing Russians with the Germanic Barbarians of the 1st century you guys went to far

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    BTW, the poem that Alexey posted on SF says it all. It was written by Blok in 1918, just after the revolution, it is incredible. I've been trying to find a translation, but looks like it has never been translated and I'm not gifted enough to do that myself :(

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    Aloysha wrote "we of the Faustian West and the Russians share white blood"
    But isn't this 'meaningless' to him, as he has already stated elsewhere that the term 'White' is meaningless?

    I agree that Europe [and Russia to an extent] are composed of White Nations, and may come to a closer alliance in the future.

    However, to the question "is Russia, as America is in relation to Europe, a Culture-Colony of the Faustian West?", I feel that Russia's earlier 'Western' element was swamped by Mongolisation in the Middle Ages and later by Bolshevism in the 20th century.
    And so no, Russia is far LESS 'Western' [or 'Occidental'] than is America.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moody Lawless
    Aloysha wrote "we of the Faustian West and the Russians share white blood"
    But isn't this 'meaningless' to him, as he has already stated elsewhere that the term 'White' is meaningless?
    Culture is what allows genetics to be socially defined. Would you say there are Iranians you would consider white, despite the massive cultural rift between Europe and Shi'ite Iran? I would not. My signature says something that defines my politics : 'Guard thy kin of thy blood and thy spirit' - I believe both are nessecary. Genes alone are not going to motivate a revolution, would you agree? A living being, in order to consider its own existance, must have both physical and psychological self identity. Russia as an ethnic-national unit thinks like Europe more than America does, and it is not stupid enough to consider mongoloids its brothers, as millions of Americans of European descent consider negroids and mesitzos do.

    I agree that Europe [and Russia to an extent] are composed of White Nations, and may come to a closer alliance in the future.
    'To an extent'? What sort of rubbish is this? Ethnic Russia's population has, at most, only 5% mongoloid blood. Should I find some statistics to post about the interracial mixing in Britain and America, or should we both agree that Russia is a nation EUROPEAN by blood, and leave it at that?

    However, to the question "is Russia, as America is in relation to Europe, a Culture-Colony of the Faustian West?", I feel that Russia's earlier 'Western' element was swamped by Mongolisation in the Middle Ages and later by Bolshevism in the 20th century.
    And so no, Russia is far LESS 'Western' [or 'Occidental'] than is America.
    I strongly disagree. Russia does not accept homosexuality, mass hedonism, multiculturalism and it does not have a white 'guilt trip' syndrome. America does. I'm quite willing to say Russia is far more European culturally than America is. Britain also has millions of Asians in its country, and over a third of America is of non-white blood. France also has upwards of ten million Arabs and other non-Europeans within its borders, and the entirety of the West has been under Jewish culture distortion for the last fifty years.

    Russia was hijacked in a time of internal chaos by Jews, who, using the cover of Marxism, emphasised Russia's collectivist popular soul (largely a result of an agricultural population consistantly under siege by Mongols, Tartars and other barbarians, resulting in the strong communal religiousness of the Slavic Russian, his tendency for strong leadership, and his strong tendency towards brotherhood) through the guise of Marxism in order to seperate and tear apart Russia from Europe - however, this did not result in mass propagation of homosexuality, multiracialism, guilt tripping or capitalist mass hedonism. With the decline of Soviet Socialism, the industrialisation under Stalin, and the introduction of state education, I suggest Russia's popular-collectivist soul has worn away and is now giving way quickly to cultural assimilation into Europe. I still believe Russia is more European than America as a whole is.
    All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream at night, in the dusky recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams, with open eyes, to make it possible.

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    Aloysha; "Culture is what allows genetics to be socially defined ..."

    Moody Lawless; Since you've said that 'White' is meaningless, and therefore the fact that the West and Russia are both White is not considered 'meaningful' according to you, then we have to look at culture. The West is Faustian - Russia is NOT Faustian. They are culturally very different [note that the emphasis is on 'west', or Occidental - there is nothing 'western' about Russia, although she is now adopting American market ways].


    Aloysha; "Ethnic Russia's population has, at most, only 5% mongoloid blood. Should I find some statistics to post about the interracial mixing in Britain and America, or should we both agree that Russia is a nation EUROPEAN by blood, and leave it at that?"

    ML; You are talking about 'European Russia', not Russia as a whole. The percent of Russia's population as accounted for by its largest population group is 70 to 89%. Comapre this to Portugal, Italy, Poland, Denmark and Norway, for example, where the figure is 98% or more.
    Don't take that hectoring tone with me please. Let's not fall out over what is really the important question of what model of 'Europe' we decide to adopt.

    Aloysha; "I'm quite willing to say Russia is far more European culturally than America is. Britain also has millions of Asians in its country, and over a third of America is of non-white blood. France also has upwards of ten million Arabs and other non-Europeans within its borders, and the entirety of the West has been under Jewish culture distortion for the last fifty years".

    Again, European Russia is European [although it is East European culturally, not Western], but the rest of it isn't. There are 26.7 million Muslims in Russia compared to 10.4 million Muslims in the USA.
    Actually the largest ethnic group in the USA still accounts for 70 to 89% of the population - similar to Russia.
    Nothing compares to Bolshevism when it comes to Jewish culture distortion.

    Aloysha; " ...I suggest Russia's popular-collectivist soul has worn away and is now giving way quickly to cultural assimilation into Europe. I still believe Russia is more European than America as a whole is".

    ML; I too hope that European Russia joins in a political union with Europe proper. However, I think that America received its cultural formation from Europe in total in the first place, and that very recently. Her institutions language, and customs are recognisably Western European. Russia, on the other hand, has thousands of years of Asiatic history and influence.
    I am surprised that someone who champions the term 'Occidental', i.e., 'Western', should find Russia so.
    Clearly your relation to Russia is more emotional than rational.
    Why are there beings at all, & why not rather nothing?
    [Leibniz/Heidegger]

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