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Thread: A Theory behind Nasal Prominency

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    Re: AW: Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    It largely depends on the exact proportions of the whole face and size as well as form of the nose, the same is true for males, but for females the rules are more strict for not destroying an otherwise attractive face with a larger nose - same goes for wrinkles etc., because the female attractive face is based more on harmony than the male one.
    Subjective preferences aside, I think I have a fairly harmonious face.

    I've been classified before and it seems as though the general shape of my face and body is Alpine, colouration is Medish, and some features - eyes, lips, nose - seem Dinaric [I kind of have "Elvis Presly" lips, nose vaguely s-curved, long chin, most notably] There's probably a scientific term for this, but the bottom half of my face projects more than my forehead - long jaws, long nose.

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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    I have a pretty prominent hooked nose even though my father has a very concave nose and my mothers nose is only slighty concave. I probably have a recessive gene for my nose since both my grandparents have convex noses, my maternal grandfathers being very large and hooked.

  3. #13

    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Dinarics have long faces, long noses and long heads. But the strangest characteristic which Dinarics possess is a flat occipital area. It is as if someone just cut off the rear of the head with a saw.

    I think Dinarics played a big role in the evolution of the Nordics. Perhaps a Nordic is a northern adapted Dinaric (who may have been some of the first agriculturalists). Perhaps a Corded-Dinaric-East Baltic blend is a Nordic.

    But, people keep on citing Dinaric as a component in typological classification even when no occiptial view is given. This just can't be possible. Dinarics are a special type and have special typological characteristics and I think they are invoked much too often here and for little reason.

    Something about the Thompson-Buxton Rule posted by Agrippa. I have a huge embarassing admission to make. I once attended a computer school. I hated computers but graduated and learned quite a bit about them. While attending this school, we were allowed to bring in whatever data we wished and plug it into a Fortran, regression analysis program. A regression analysis holds one variable constant and compares it to many other variables and makes correlations between the constant variable and the non-constants. This sounds like a contradiction if terms but let me explain.

    I brought in Coon's Origin of Races and entered all the data regarding skull morphology which is found in the appendix. I held brain size constant and so all the other measurements became variables to correlate to brain size. In other words, with increasing brain size, what other variables are correlated? The data went form H. erectus to Upper Paleolithic sapiens. But, I didn't have enough time to enter everything in so I had to stop after Neanderthals. Nevertheless, the "big" 32K (core) computer of the time got busy and churned out an answer. The answer was that the highest correlation with increasing brain size was nasal width. In other words, as brain size increased, so did the width of the human nose. This made no sense to me at first. The second highest correlation with increasing brain size turned out to be nasal length. Nasal width X Nasal length = total nose size. Then I remembered that I had ended with Neanderthals. What this meant to me was that as brain size increased, so did nose size in the H. erectus to H. neanderthalensis line. In other words, Neanderthals had really big brains and really big noses.

    But, Neanderthals did not live in warm damp climates as would be expected by Thomson-Buxton's Rule. They lived at times in cold dry climates, cold wet climates, and rather temperate climates as are in Euorpe now but not warm wet climates. I think Thomson-Buxton is wrong.

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    AW: Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Solar Wolff View Post
    I think Dinarics played a big role in the evolution of the Nordics. Perhaps a Nordic is a northern adapted Dinaric (who may have been some of the first agriculturalists). Perhaps a Corded-Dinaric-East Baltic blend is a Nordic.
    Dinaroids at least played a role in the formation of certain Nordoid strains, not just the Keltic Nordic alone probably. However, Nordoid forms being older than Dinaroid ones. One possibility being that out of a basic, Corded like Nordoid and Cromagnoid (Borreby!) spectrum first Dinaroids arose and a Protonordoid form, and then those two mixed again later.

    But, Neanderthals did not live in warm damp climates as would be expected by Thomson-Buxton's Rule. They lived at times in cold dry climates, cold wet climates, and rather temperate climates as are in Euorpe now but not warm wet climates. I think Thomson-Buxton is wrong.
    I dont think so, its always a trade-off as you know, both in our life, economy and nature. You get something, but you have to invest or lose something all the time.

    Like I said once, a very narrow-long-prominent nose would be best for a colder climate to filter the air and at the same time it is the most appealing and at the same time dominant form one can imagine. But the problem is: If its really too cold, such a narrow nose can be, if being prominent, problematic because of frost bites primarily.

    For Neandertals this was no option I'd say, and their midface was different too, so the pre-conditions might have been very different anatomically. They lived in the cold but not the extreme cold neither, since they tried to avoid it, lived rather in refuge areas in smaller numbers. F.e. a large portion of classic Neandertals seem to have been concentrated in Southern France. Homo sapiens was not that well adapted for the cold anatomically, but by behaviour, anatomy and culture much more flexible, able to adapt faster to new and even more extreme conditions. And Neandertals might have had less problems with infections, living in smaller and more isolated groups, which is again a reason to have good filtered warm air and healthy mucous membranes in your nose. That the sexual selection was a very different one not caring for modern human aesthetics too much should be obvious as well (!).

    Furthermore I once read that their whole system was different and they had more blood vessels in their facial area, but probably not much more subcutaneous fat in the face. This again speaks for Neandertals being very wastefully with the energy they had. They used their energy and body primarily to deal with the natural challenges, that seem to have been true for both when they hunted and tried to keep the heat. Sapiens was more versatile, had not to go in the direction of physical overspecialisation and could balance a lack of anatomic adaptation (to the cold f.e.) out by using cultural techniques and social organisation - for a long time and in Europe, Western Eurasia, Europids at least.
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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHook View Post
    I have a pretty prominent hooked nose even though my father has a very concave nose and my mothers nose is only slighty concave. I probably have a recessive gene for my nose since both my grandparents have convex noses, my maternal grandfathers being very large and hooked.
    My father's nose is hooked and convex [I think he's keltic+alpine]; my mother's nose [pontic+dinaric+alpine] is straight then turns up at the very end. I ended up with a nose that looks to be straight or even slightly up-turned until the middle of the bridge, where it hooks slightly.

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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Thats just too simple because this trait occurs in groups which are hardly composite races, but doesnt occur in some composite races in which this trait was not selected, its simple as that, even if dominant, it will win on the long run only with a selective advantage in most cases. The advantage of such a nasal shape is just provable, the disadvantage is rather minor (less air through the nose, more vulnerable nasal bones, a minor number of extreme forms which are really unattractive, whereas normal the majority might have even an advantage in a given population - bold, hawkish, noble - elegant in females, though for females it might be less advantageous...). Only extreme cold or very, very extreme wet heat might lead to a potential disadvantage, as sexual selection in a majority population with very different aesthetic preferences and social structures.

    Especially in heroic cultures in which male virtues were being held up a bold and noble appearance was nothing bad, just compare with Roman and Greek nose, with the positive ideas about the Persian nobility and their nasal shape (obviously always speaking about the non-extreme examples) or the typical Nordic aristocrat with a prominent and more elevated nasal profile.
    The small-short nose is something rather base and unrefined, at least in males quite often and in any case nothing noble in the common perception, whats just natural because the nasal profile is associated (usually, if harmonious) with the whole facial structure.
    Agrippa, this theory about sexual selection/heroic cultures is very interesting, do you have any source to indicate us?

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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    it should be noted that every race, ethnic group, (whichever sub-group nomenclature you wish) has the capacity to develop nasal, chin, forehead promience (ie collectively known here as agrippa's "progressive features"). it's just due to environment factors that these features aren't as frequent in some populations as others. every race of humans have enough genetic variation in themselves to allow them to adapt to new environmental conditions.

    take a population of hunter gatherer amazonian indians and put them in a climate similar to andeans, and wait a few thousand years, they would develop features that characterize the andeans indians. same thing could also work the otherway; take a population of european hunter-gatherers (if such a group exists) and put them in the tropical jungles and wait a thousand years, the descendant population will have features similar to present day brazillian indians.

    but take in mind of the fact that this would only work with hunter-gatherers. the force of civilization is able to negate any adaptive that a new environment may exert

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    AW: Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclides View Post
    Agrippa, this theory about sexual selection/heroic cultures is very interesting, do you have any source to indicate us?
    Its primarily my theory, but there are a lot of arguments for it. To begin with, from an ethological point of view, we have certain facial stereotypes in mind which being connoted with specific attributes if looking at human faces and there is a real reason, a benefit for this. Because we were selected to look at human faces that way, we see animals the same way and interestingly, many animals have a real correlation too like wolf and hawk, which have both the form and attributes, may this be by chance or not.

    Another point is that we find the typical correlation of certain facial traits with specific personality traits in classic literature, rather intuitive racial psychology and because of psycho-hormonal-physical relations in modern studies in which dominant individuals, or better facial clues, were compared with clues for subdominant status and behaviour.

    it should be noted that every race, ethnic group, (whichever sub-group nomenclature you wish) has the capacity to develop nasal, chin, forehead promience (ie collectively known here as agrippa's "progressive features"). it's just due to environment factors that these features aren't as frequent in some populations as others. every race of humans have enough genetic variation in themselves to allow them to adapt to new environmental conditions.

    take a population of hunter gatherer amazonian indians and put them in a climate similar to andeans, and wait a few thousand years, they would develop features that characterize the andeans indians. same thing could also work the otherway; take a population of european hunter-gatherers (if such a group exists) and put them in the tropical jungles and wait a thousand years, the descendant population will have features similar to present day brazillian indians.

    but take in mind of the fact that this would only work with hunter-gatherers. the force of civilization is able to negate any adaptive that a new environment may exert
    Thats actually not true. It would be with a certain probability be true for the ANCESTORS of the two groups, but not necessarily (though possibly) for the racial types of our days. Simply because the developments which happened will influence the adaptation to the environment in the future. So they would somehow go in the respective direction, but wouldnt necessarily become the same as long as they starting point was very different and additional adaptations (f.e. because of psychic-intelligence and/or cultural innovations) happened which will make another way of regional adaptation possible (f.e. with a lower degree of direct dependence and overspecialisation).

    To avoid overspecialisation and to keep a general adaptability (of existing forms) and evolvability (for future forms). One sided infantilisation is no real choice for a progressive path no matter if being a good strategy for a giving environment and a given time in a limited and "protected" populatoin.
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    Its well known that dinaricised offspring result from crossings of long- and short-skull whites. But as Agrippa had noted such appearance becomes typical in upland areas probably because of natural selection favouring the long nose and midface and therefore become separate regional races. But there is no one Dinarid or Taurid race in the way a so-called Dinarid hearth in the east was once spoken of.

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