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Thread: A Theory behind Nasal Prominency

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    Post A Theory behind Nasal Prominency

    We see Dinarid being used quite often, even if the subject has only a prominent convex nose and not the other traits that define the type.

    Hooton made some good points on nasal convexity.

    "The Iranian Plateau type differs from the Upper Palaeolithic type particularly in its long, high-bridged, and boldly jutting nasal promontory. It has the same huge dolichocephalic head and massive, usually long face. The great nose may be either straight or convex, more often the latter. I have no doubt that archaeological research in the Middle East will reveal the Upper Palaeolithic antiquity of this type, which, in my opinion, is he most probable fons et origo of all the exuberant nasal convexity that has been distributed, not only through several White subraces and types, but by hybridization among such composite races as the American Indian, and even, perhaps, the Papuan type of Melanesia. For, high nasal elevation and convexity behave as Mendelian dominants. I incline to the theory that the original form of this magnificient nose is straight bridged and that the convexity arises initially in a bowing or buckling that takes place when it is grown on a somewhat too short face as a possibly disharmonic feature. However, that is merely an interesting possibility. The Iranian Plateau type is occasionally encountered in Europe, where it may be an effect of recombination."

    Earnest Albert Hooton, Up from the Ape, pp. 583-584, seventh printing, The Macmillan company, New York, 1958.
    Last edited by Glenlivet; Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005 at 07:00 PM.

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    Post Higher bridged and prominent noses - Nose types

    Thats not fully true in my opinion because those with a long nose have usually a long midface as well, but its right that this convexity might simply prolongue the way of the air through the nose.
    But we shouldnt exclude local differentiation, both because of sexual selection, to look "more impressive and masculine" (convexity is a progressive feature though its obviously not generally positive if too extreme) and to look different from other groups, to be able to distinguish easier between "us" and "them". Both might played in at least secondary.

    I wrote an article on Stirpes about nasal shape and I just repost it (without all attachments so far, they were lost during an update) with some corrections in this thread because its important to see some basic relations which might primarily lead to tendencies which were furthered by what I speculated above:

    Just some thoughts I already posted here:
    http://dodona.proboards35.com/index....num=1112220033

    Higher bridged and prominent noses

    are usually correlated with a generally strong facial relief and more masculine-progressive tendency of types.
    So there might be a general tendency behind it which was strengthened via sexual selection under certain circumstances.

    Furthermore a high bridged nose prolongs the way of the air through the nose which might be advantageous in a dry or cold (not extremely though) climate.

    So good for a rather temperate climate because the air will be better filtered and heated or lets say controlled via a longer way through the nasal system.

    In extreme cold its this vs. the danger of nasal frostbites, though a higher bridge is generally better as long as the nose as a whole is not too protruding.

    There are other factors than heat or cold as well, especially DRY or thin air is important. The air will be better filtered, not as dry and the respiratory tract is better protected, not just from dry air but from infections in general which can come up easier if the mucosa dries out.

    Orthognathy and rather high nose bridges-more protuding noses seem to be oftentimes correlated as well.

    Europid and Negrid noses from below from John R. Baker ("Race") after Topinard:


    Frontal nasal shape - nasal index:


    Rather primitive tropical forms (Weddid) metrically (simplified) compared with more progressive Europid mobile farmers and herders coming out of a dryer environment (Weddid : Indid):


    Its not by chance that those racial types of Europids and even non-Europids which live in a higher and dryer environment (original unreduced Taurids were mobile herder farmers and specialised especially for the higher, hilly and mountainous regions, Irano-Afghans come from a higher and dry environment as well) have a longer, more prominent, higher rooted and generally larger nose.
    Just compare the distribution of Taurid core areas and areas with Dinaroid tendencies: Pyrenees (Baskid), Alps, Balkan (Dinarid), Carpathians (Dinaroid-Carpathid), Caucasus (Dinaroid-Armenoid), Pamir (Pamirid).
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    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005 at 08:14 PM.
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    Post Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    not only through several White subraces and types, but by hybridization among such composite races as the American Indian, and even, perhaps, the Papuan type of Melanesia. For, high nasal elevation and convexity behave as Mendelian dominants.
    Thats just too simple because this trait occurs in groups which are hardly composite races, but doesnt occur in some composite races in which this trait was not selected, its simple as that, even if dominant, it will win on the long run only with a selective advantage in most cases. The advantage of such a nasal shape is just provable, the disadvantage is rather minor (less air through the nose, more vulnerable nasal bones, a minor number of extreme forms which are really unattractive, whereas normal the majority might have even an advantage in a given population - bold, hawkish, noble - elegant in females, though for females it might be less advantageous...). Only extreme cold or very, very extreme wet heat might lead to a potential disadvantage, as sexual selection in a majority population with very different aesthetic preferences and social structures.

    Especially in heroic cultures in which male virtues were being held up a bold and noble appearance was nothing bad, just compare with Roman and Greek nose, with the positive ideas about the Persian nobility and their nasal shape (obviously always speaking about the non-extreme examples) or the typical Nordic aristocrat with a prominent and more elevated nasal profile.
    The small-short nose is something rather base and unrefined, at least in males quite often and in any case nothing noble in the common perception, whats just natural because the nasal profile is associated (usually, if harmonious) with the whole facial structure.
    Last edited by Agrippa; Tuesday, November 22nd, 2005 at 07:40 PM.
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    Post Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    This two valuable postings of Nordgau are of general interest on that matter as well:

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=6552

    Especially the Thomson-Buxton's rule obviously:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nordgau
    Bergmann's rule: body height

    Within a warm-blooded species, the races in the colder zones are usually bigger than those in warmer zones. There's a negative correlation between the average weight of a population and the average annual temperature of its living space; the higher the average annual temperature, the lower the average weight.
    The Indianids show a gradation of measures (height; head size) from the two cold zones up to the equatorial zone.

    Interpretation of this result of selection:
    Heat emission of the body is proportional to the surface, but heat production proportional to the volume of bodies. At bigger bodies the surface is in relation to the volume smaller.
    In colder climates the genetically bigger variants of a warm-blooded form survive better, as they can resist because of their relatively small surface (in relation to their volume) better against chilling through.

    Allen's rule: body extremities

    Allen's rule is in close connection to Bergmann's rule.
    Within a species, at the groups which live in a colder climate the distant body parts have a less share of the total surface than at those in colder climates.

    To make the relation between heat emission and production conveniant, those groups who are in colder climates tend to be rather stocky, while those who are in warmer climates tend to be rather slimm. An indicator is here the leg length, and this seems first as a contradiction to Bergmann's rule, as the leg length is in a relation to the total body length. A reducing of the leg length leads to a minor surface in relation to the volume, but also to a reducing of the heigth.

    The explanation is that when a small body is made bigger, but the parts keep the same proportions, the bigger body has less surface in relation to the volume than the smaller one had. But when a small body is made bigger through a lengthening of the legs, the parts of the bigger body show among themselves other proportions, and the surface of the body needn't become smaller in relation to the volume.
    So when in contrary to Bergmann's rule,populations are small in cold zones, they have relatively short legs, and when they are high in hot zones, they have relatively long legs (certain Negrid groups!).
    Allen's rule can be taken as a rule of proportion, the relation of body length to body mass.

    Allen's rule could also give an explanstion of the Mongolid facial flatness (which already Kant interpreted in 1775 as an adaption to cold climate):
    a) Reduction of facial surface to a minimum through flattening of all projections as much as possible.
    b) Padding of the surface with fat to prevent the loss of heat.
    c) Narrowing of the nasal passages, to give the air a maximum of heat at the way to the lungs.

    Gloger's rule: pigmentation

    In wet-warm climates the mellanin production is more intensive than in dry-cold ones, and so darker shades appear in those more often than in these.
    Melanin is produced through the occidation of tyrosin with the influence of ultraviolet rays and vitamin D.
    A strong pigment accumulation in the skin makes the UV radiation to a great extent inefective and therefor protects the organism from an oversupply of it. In zones o not much UV radiation a sparsely pigmented skin lets give the body enough UV radiation because of it being more pervious for UV radiation.

    As compensation of the danger of an overheating of the body,which is itensified because of that, strong pigmented populations like the Negrids have a good thermo-regulation through a higher number of sweat glands per skin surface and a higher intensity of sweat secretion.

    The itensity of UV radiation depends of the distance fromthe equator, sea level, clouds, humidity, air pollution, vegetation and reflexion capability of the ground.
    It is less intensive at the west coasts of the continents and in the temperate zones. It is more intensive in equator-near, dry zones, high mountain regions and in the arctic.

    Thomson-Buxton's rule: nasal breadth

    The nasal breadth plays also a role for thermo-regulation: Generally, the nasal index, the relation of nasal breadth to height, gets bigger from dry-cold to wet-warm climates.
    When the instreaming breath pillar passes a wide channel,it floods better and is less influenced by the warm mucous membranes; when the passage is narrow, the breath volume is devided in smaller streams, the flooding occurs slower, and it absorbes more heat from the surface which it passes.

    The nasal index is an indicator of the relation between the size of the nasal mucous membrans to the diameter of the breathing channel. Rather important than the warming is the moistening of the air. Very narrow noses are in dry-cold polar regions, narrow noses in the temperate zones and in dry-hot regions, very broad noses, very broad noses in wet-hot tropical zones.

    Based on information from:
    - Kenntner, Georg: Rasse aus Erbe und Umwelt. Der Mensch im Spannungsfeld seines Lebensraums, Berlin 1975.
    - Schwidetzky, Ilse: Rasse, in: Anthropologie (Fischer-Lexikon 15), ed. by Gerhard Heberer / Ilse Schwidetzky / Hubert Walter, Frankfurt a. M. and Hamburg 1970 (new edition), p. 187-215.

    and this thread as well:

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=37644
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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Peruvian Indians , that live in Andine region ,with high altitude and dry air show frequently thin noses with high nasal elevation and convexity.Compa
    re with an amazonian Indian.This nose type was selected by the climatic conditions there for sure, but how it appeared ( natural mutations?, hybridization with caucasians?..) there for the first time is another question...

    '' To be noted is the story of Viracocha, the great White God of the Incans, who tends to have some similarities with the Aztec God, Quetzalcoatl, as well as the close relationship with other white god legends that permeate the Americas and the islands of the Pacific Ocean ''
    http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Foru.../Viracoch.html

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=497164
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    Last edited by Euclides; Thursday, August 3rd, 2006 at 02:55 PM.

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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency


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    Sv: Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclides View Post
    Peruvian Indians , that live in Andine region ,with high altitude and dry air show frequently thin noses with high nasal elevation and convexity.Compare with an amazonian Indian.This nose type was selected by the climatic conditions there for sure, but how it appeared ( natural mutations?, hybridization with caucasians?..) there for the first time is another question...
    Well, as far as I know the Americans came across the Bering Strait in several waves, and some theories claim that some of the groups traveled with some kind of seacrafts along the coasts to South America. Are genetic studies of the Americas realiable? There were (and are) so many different tribes & groups, alot of them were probably extinct even before the Old World's colonization, and even more afterwards. But maybe one of the migrating groups had more convex noses, maybe one that ended up in present day Peru?

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    Sv: Higher bridged and prominent noses - Nose types

    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa
    Higher bridged and prominent noses are usually correlated with a generally strong facial relief and more masculine-progressive tendency of types. So there might be a general tendency behind it which was strengthened via sexual selection under certain circumstances.
    [...]
    Especially in heroic cultures in which male virtues were being held up a bold and noble appearance was nothing bad, just compare with Roman and Greek nose, with the positive ideas about the Persian nobility and their nasal shape (obviously always speaking about the non-extreme examples) or the typical Nordic aristocrat with a prominent and more elevated nasal profile.
    Since males generally have bigger noses that takes in more air - because of the male's role as a hunter rather than gatherer - it seems likely not only would females prefer males with bigger noses, but the males would also manage better, be stronger, get more food and rise in the ranks of a tribe or society (and later be considered nobles).

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    Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Heh, what about females with big noses?

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    AW: Re: A theory behind nasal prominency

    Quote Originally Posted by Heksulv View Post
    Heh, what about females with big noses?
    It largely depends on the exact proportions of the whole face and size as well as form of the nose, the same is true for males, but for females the rules are more strict for not destroying an otherwise attractive face with a larger nose - same goes for wrinkles etc., because the female attractive face is based more on harmony than the male one.
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