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Thread: A question regarding origins of CW/BA culture

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    Post A question regarding origins of CW/BA culture

    Hi, I've been reading "Nordid racial origins' thread by Volksdeutsche and Frans and I have several questions concerning this part:

    "And on the plausible or refuted link between Kurgan People and Corded types, I made these statements:

    The movements of the Aisto-Nordics of the Corded Ware
    culture must have originated from northern Central
    Europe, while it makes it appearance much later in
    Northeastern Europe, where they would have undergo
    some alteration due to contacts with Ladogan-like
    groups, attaining lower and less profiled faces(Bunak:
    "Es ist danach anzunehmen, dass der ursprunglche
    schnurkeramische Typus der Fatjanovo-Gruppen durch
    osteuropaeische Typen modifiziert wurde").
    Principal component analysis of 39 series of the early
    Bronze Age and Neolithic puts the CW of Central
    Germany, Poland and Czechoslowakia together in one
    cluster opposite to the Yamna series(=Kurgan culture),
    which sufficiently denies an alledged origin of Kurgan
    signature on the CW, btw, CW have high and narrow
    crania and a narrow face, on the other hand, the Yamna
    group sets apart by low and broad crania and a
    broadish face.
    In fact, CW shows continuity with the series
    corresponding with the Early Neolithic of Central
    Europe , especially east German and Czech CW are
    particularly close to LBK."

    - Why the movements of the Aisto-Nordics of the Corded Ware culture must have originated from northern Central Europe?
    - Why does it make it appearance much later in Northeastern Europe and why do you think 'they would have undergo some alteration due to contacts with Ladogan-like groups, attaining lower and less profiled faces?
    - Yamna series = Kurgan culture??

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    North central Europe did become a great Corded center, but only later, when the Slavs moved into Eastern Germany and Poland.

    And these Slavs came from the great eastern Corded center.

    The Slavs of Bohemia show Corded, as well as Keltic and Halstatt types. And this is to be expected, because it is here that the Slavs always mixed with western Europeans.

    That from Poland, the eastern half of which was included in the home of the Slavic peoples before their period of dispersion, is not very abundant. Altogether less than 40 male crania may be assembled, and few of these have complete measurements.103 (See Appendix I, col. 46.) These skulls are all predominantly dolichocephalic; the mean cranial index is 73, and not a single round-headed example is included. Among these Polish skulls are some notably long and large specimens Nvith long. narrow faces. The noses of the ,group, as a whole, are fully leptorrhine. On the whole, the ancestral Slavs of Poland were Nordics, within the range of the Indo-European group; these skulls lean to the longer- and larger-headed Corded extreme, and resemble in many respects, the Hannover series, and by extension, the Anglo-Saxons.

    Numerous remains of the Slavic expansion into Germany show clearly the physical types of the particular invaders concerned in this quarter. The most important series is that studied by Asmus, who collected the skulls of the ancient Wends of Mecklenburg.104 (See Appendix I, col. 47.) These form a reasonably homogeneous group of high dolichocephals and low mesocephals, with a moderate vault height, a low sloping forehead, long narrow faces, leptorrhine or mesorrhine noses, high orbits, and a strongly built jaw. These Old Wends, rounder headed than the Poles, fall very close metrically to the Kelts and to the Scythians. In intermediate parts of Germany, particularly in western Prussia and Pomerania, the Old Slavic skulls are higher vaulted, and closer in this respect to the Polish sub-type.105

    Those in Bohemia are for the most part the same as the Wend crania in Germany, except for one series of Matiegka (see Appendix I, col. 48); in this, the vaults are extremely high, nearly reaching early Corded dimensions. This is true to a minor extent of a small group from Slovakia and of individual skulls.106 Thus, in Bohemia, the Slavs included three sub-types, with Hallstatt, Polish, and Keltic analogies.

    In terms of the Kurgan people - it seems that those in the north had braoder features, while those in the south were more gracile. But both were high headed and both show links to current eastern European populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    In terms of the Kurgan people - it seems that those in the north had braoder features, while those in the south were more gracile. But both were high headed and both show links to current eastern European populations.
    You're confusing the Danubians with the Kurgan folk; in the western periphery of the LBK distribution the gracile type prevailed, while in its center of origin they're broader in face and nose size, have lower face height and higher and longer crania.

    On the Kurgan-CW problem, I wrote once the following piece:

    The movements of the Aisto-Nordics of the Corded Ware
    culture must have originated from northern Central
    Europe, while it makes it appearance much later in
    Northeastern Europe, where they would have undergo
    some alteration due to contacts with Ladogan-like
    groups, attaining lower and less profiled faces(Bunak:
    "Es ist danach anzunehmen, dass der ursprunglche
    schnurkeramische Typus der Fatjanovo-Gruppen durch
    osteuropaeische Typen modifiziert wurde").
    Principal component analysis of 39 series of the early
    Bronze Age and Neolithic puts the CW of Central
    Germany, Poland and Czechoslowakia together in one
    cluster opposite to the Yamna series(=Kurgan culture),
    which sufficiently denies an alledged origin of Kurgan
    signature on the CW, btw, CW have high and narrow
    crania and a narrow face, on the other hand, the Yamna
    group sets apart by low and broad crania and a
    broadish face.
    In fact, CW shows continuity with the series
    corresponding with the Early Neolithic of Central
    Europe , especially east German and Czech CW are
    particularly close to LBK.


    Though, deviation diagrams putting CW in relation to LBK and Yamna
    suggest that CW doesn't fit well between those two and with exeption
    of orbital height and orbital index, the Kurgan contribution to CW is
    quite rightly contested.
    Corded Ware is divided in an earlier A-horizon and later B-horizon,
    whereby A deviates more strikingly from Yamna for its higher, narrower
    and longer crania, but geographically closer to the Kurgans located CW
    show some similarities, the same parallel have to be drawn from a
    comparison between Yamna and Catacomb Culture series with later
    Central German CW, which hints on Kurganisation after the beginning of
    CW and by entering groups from the East.



    Other correlations with the Baalberg-complex in Central Germany and
    Bohemia, next to the Baden complex in the Carpathian Basin insist,
    despite Kurgan-influence(steppe groups entered Central europe as far
    as Eastern Hungary), on cranial and metric continuity with local
    predecessors, though facial flatness and skeletical robusticity crop
    up in the Baden series, nevertheless the eastern series give evidence
    that their roots must lie in the local population before any Kurgan
    invasion can be attested, since they resemble more the Central
    European Roessen complex and even LBK:

    CRANIAL BREADTH:

    Kurgan Baalberg LBK-Roessen
    141,4 137,1 136,5


    BIZYGOMATIC BREADTH:

    Kurgan Baalberg LBK-Roessen
    137,3 126,4 129,2


    Anyway, the effect of Kurganisation decreases from East to West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans3108
    You're confusing the Danubians with the Kurgan folk; in the western periphery of the LBK distribution the gracile type prevailed, while in its center of origin they're broader in face and nose size, have lower face height and higher and longer crania.
    So who are indo-europeans - Yamnaya culture or Danubeans/LBK and why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wend
    So who are indo-europeans - Yamnaya culture or Danubeans/LBK and why?
    here the key is the Tarim mummies, it seems that low vault danubean was only present in continental europe. if those tarim mummies are low vault then the origin is surely europe and it would make indoeropeans originally european. but if tarim mummies are upper paleolithic mostly this would be even more speculative.
    best regards

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    Quote Originally Posted by asparukh
    here the key is the Tarim mummies, it seems that low vault danubean was only present in continental europe. if those tarim mummies are low vault then the origin is surely europe and it would make indoeropeans originally european. but if tarim mummies are upper paleolithic mostly this would be even more speculative.
    best regards

    Low vaulted heads don't mean anything by themselves.

    Many people in central Asia are low vaulted today. Even many Irano-Afghans are low vaulted.

    There is plenty of evidence that most western Europeans are of paleolithic origin, even the most long and narrow headed ones.

    And there is no evidence of any great migrations from west to east of Europe.

    Moreoever, there were only relatively small migrations from east and south east to the west of Europe.

    So nothing points to the Indo-European culture originating in western or even central Europe. And nothing suggest that the Indo-Europeans from the east influenced western Europeans to any great extent.

    Older generations of arhcheologists and anthropologists were clearly confused.

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    I think the biggest problem with this whole Indo-European debate is that for too long people have been trying to use it for political purposes.

    Scholars in the west have had an extremely difficult time admitting that the Indo-Europeans came from the east, and that most of them stayed there.

    They do now admit it, but in the past, this would be cultural heresay in the west, which always looked at itself as burning the torch of the ancient Nordic Aryans.

    A lot of great work has actually been done in Russia in regards to this, and a lot of it goes against what we believe thanks to the old western books.

    I don't think that Marija Gimbutas was correct about everything when she came up with the proto-Indo-European theory, and some of her stuff is now being pulled apart. But I really do think that there are some very obvious links between the Kurgans, EU19, Eastern Nordics and Irano-Afghans, and the ancient Iranians and Slavs.

    Here's some stuff I got about the proto IE tribes...

    4. Glazkovo tribes
    5. Andronovo tribes
    6. Srub tribes
    7. Uralic/Shigirin tribes
    8. Abashevo tribes
    9. Fatjanovo tribes
    10. Middle Dniepr tribes
    11. Late Tripolje tribes
    12. Upper Dniest/Komarovo tribes
    13. Luzatian tribes
    19. East-Baltic tribes
    29. Anau/Andronovo tribes
    30 Tazagabjab/Andronovo tribes

    http://historic.ru/lostcivil/books/enchv1/map11.shtml


    Fatjanovo, Middle Dniepr, Andronovo and Srub tribes were of the same racial type, somewhat gracialized Dniepr-Donetzk/Bruenn.
    Here are some busts of these ancients constructed from old skulls.


    Andronovo type (from Volga to Baikal)


    Fatjanovo type (from Dniepr to Kama)

    Andronovo types became Indo-Iranians, in Eastern Europe superimposed themselves on similar Slavic speaking Stog tribes, but later Slavs re-slavicized this population, which became Antes. It's now Eastern Great Russians of the Don-Sursk type (50% of pure light eyes, 30% of blond hairs, 5% of concave noses), also partly Central Russians (Western Upper Volga type, 51% of pure light eyes, 37% of blond hairs, 4% of concave noses).

    Fatjanovo types were later partly assimilated by Finns, in the period of their short westward expansion from Middle Volga, but mainly became "Balts", while Middle Dniepr types became Dniepr Balts.

    Somewhere on the wester periphery of this zone West-Baltic dialects aka proto-Slavic language appeared. Later due to changes of climate Slavic groups started moving back into Eastren Europe, where encountered westward expansion of Antes (Vyatichi, Severyane). One group moved directly from Poland to Ilmen, thus Slovenes of Novgorod appeared.

    Not that all Slavs who were superimposing themselves on East-Balts were moving directly from Poland, rather it was a gradual border movement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polak
    I think the biggest problem with this whole Indo-European debate is that for too long people have been trying to use it for political purposes.

    Scholars in the west have had an extremely difficult time admitting that the Indo-Europeans came from the east, and that most of them stayed there.

    They do now admit it, but in the past, this would be cultural heresay in the west, which always looked at itself as burning the torch of the ancient Nordic Aryans.

    A lot of great work has actually been done in Russia in regards to this, and a lot of it goes against what we believe thanks to the old western books.

    I don't think that Marija Gimbutas was correct about everything when she came up with the proto-Indo-European theory, and some of her stuff is now being pulled apart. But I really do think that there are some very obvious links between the Kurgans, EU19, Eastern Nordics and Irano-Afghans, and the ancient Iranians and Slavs.

    Here's some stuff I got about the proto IE tribes...

    4. Glazkovo tribes
    5. Andronovo tribes
    6. Srub tribes
    7. Uralic/Shigirin tribes
    8. Abashevo tribes
    9. Fatjanovo tribes
    10. Middle Dniepr tribes
    11. Late Tripolje tribes
    12. Upper Dniest/Komarovo tribes
    13. Luzatian tribes
    19. East-Baltic tribes
    29. Anau/Andronovo tribes
    30 Tazagabjab/Andronovo tribes

    http://historic.ru/lostcivil/books/enchv1/map11.shtml




    Here are some busts of these ancients constructed from old skulls.


    Andronovo type (from Volga to Baikal)


    Fatjanovo type (from Dniepr to Kama)
    hmm what about karasuk and pazyrik types, and please comment on this beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asparukh
    hmm what about karasuk and pazyrik types, and please comment on this beauty.

    I don't know. I have to look into that.

    I wish I had all the data on the remains of proto-Indo-Europeans found on the steppes, but I don't.

    Looking at their skeletons in detail would solve all the mysteries. Though we would need to also do some genetic tests on the bones.

    In regards to that woman, I have no idea who she is. She has proto-European features, but seems to have the pigmentation of an Indian or Dravidian.

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    Another question...

    http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=2891

    Alledged to be responsable for the expansion of Proto-Baltic and
    Proto-Slavic, the Corded, anthropologically related to the Early
    Neolithic LBK folk, may vouch for the "Altindogermanisch" nature of
    the Danubians, the more since the area occupied by them show in
    terms of hydronomy not one single trace of some non-IE substrate and
    are fully in accordance to the linguistic laws pertaining to the IE
    languages; hence, most of Continental Europe has
    been "Indogermanisch" for about 7000years.


    Why are Slavic/Baltic Corded types anthropologically related to the Early
    Neolithic LBK folk??
    And why LBK are IE??

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