Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34

Thread: The Fate of the Unbaptised Innocents

  1. #1
    Funding Member
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member


    Join Date
    May 2004
    Last Online
    @
    Ethnicity
    Flemish
    Country
    Flanders Flanders
    Gender
    Posts
    5,484
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    17
    Thanked in
    14 Posts

    The Fate of the Unbaptised Innocents

    EDIT: I split the previous thread and moved it into this forum as it was veering off of the original topic. Milesian


    Quote Originally Posted by Nordhammer
    I'm not an egalitarian. I don't think all life is equally worthy.

    The procedure of aborting a child of rape would be very early, likely before any real fetal development took place. Probably could be done with the "morning after" pill they have now. The argument is about the "innocent life" you previously spoke of. Back to heaven I say.
    Dead unborn children or babies who weren't baptized enter according to Catholic tradition in the realm of the Limbo, somewhere between Purgatory and Heaven.
    Last edited by Milesian; Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003 at 06:33 PM.

  2. #2
    Sideways to the Sun
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Milesian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 18th, 2008 @ 04:55 PM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Location
    Aileach
    Gender
    Occupation
    Rebel
    Politics
    Anti-Neophilia
    Religion
    Traditional Catholicism
    Posts
    2,745
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Post

    Yes, there were differing theories on that question throughout history.
    I believe it was St Thomas Aquinas, perhaps the greatest Doctor of the Church, who proposed that non-baptised innocents can not go to Heaven because Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus but they do not endure physical suffering as the damned do.
    They are however, deprived of the Beatific Vision but this is not a pain to them as they know it was never to be there's to enjoy.
    He seems to describe an eternity for them that is absent of pain and yet they cannot enjoy the full fruits of paradise. Hence the desire to baptise infants as soon as possible.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Phlegethon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Last Online
    Monday, April 4th, 2016 @ 11:13 PM
    Gender
    Age
    47
    Posts
    2,868
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    5
    Thanked in
    5 Posts

    Post

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

    1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

    1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

    1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

    http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0015/_P1A.HTM
    Last edited by Phlegethon; Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003 at 02:20 PM.
    And all my youth passed by sad-hearted,
    the joy of Spring was never mine;
    Autumn blows through me dread of parting,
    and my heart dreams and longs to die.

    - Nikolaus Lenau (1802-1850)

    Real misanthropes are not found in solitude, but in the world; since it is experience of life, and not philosophy, which produces real hatred of mankind.

    - Giacomo Leopardi (1798-1837)

  4. #4
    Sideways to the Sun
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Milesian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 18th, 2008 @ 04:55 PM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Location
    Aileach
    Gender
    Occupation
    Rebel
    Politics
    Anti-Neophilia
    Religion
    Traditional Catholicism
    Posts
    2,745
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Post

    Phlegethon, thanks for posting that Catechism of the Catholic Church.
    I'm interested what edition that is, is it a pre-Vatican II or post-Vatican II edition?

    How do you reconcile it with the following infallible pronouncments:

    · The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "There is but one Universal Church of the Faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

    The Church Teaches Ex Cathedra: "The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics, and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire "which was prepared for the devil, and his angels," (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, almsdeeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441

    In fact this last one actually discredits Baptism of Blood , which is one of the Three Baptisms which is believed in by many Catholics but which I view with sceptisism.


    "If anyone says Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation, let him be anathema" (De Baptismo, Canon V) from the Sacred Council of Trent

    Further the Ecumenical Council of Vienne defined that :
    "All the faithful must confess only one Baptism which regenerates all the baptized, just as there is one God and one faith. We believe that this Sacrament, celebrated in water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is necessary for children and grown-up people alike for salvation" (Denzinger 482)

    Thus, it is tantamount to heresy even to doubt that aborted children are lost for all eternity, because it means falling into the "private judgment"' of Protestantism or, what is worse, the subjective speculation of a perverse and humanistic "theology."
    Last edited by Milesian; Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003 at 07:40 PM.

  5. #5
    Sideways to the Sun
    "Friend of Germanics"
    Skadi Funding Member

    Milesian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Last Online
    Thursday, September 18th, 2008 @ 04:55 PM
    Subrace
    Atlantid
    Location
    Aileach
    Gender
    Occupation
    Rebel
    Politics
    Anti-Neophilia
    Religion
    Traditional Catholicism
    Posts
    2,745
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    6
    Thanked in
    6 Posts

    Post

    Actually, after some more research, I believe I was mistaken about a "limbo" for unbaptised infants.Augustine declared: 'Let no one promise infants who have not been baptized a sort of middle place of happiness between damnation and Heaven, for this is what the Pelagian heresy promised them' (The Soul and Its Origin, Patrologiae Latinae, Migne, 44:475). St. Augusitine and many early fathers held that unbaptized infants go to Hell. Thus, the Ecumenical Council of Florence declared: "The souls of those who die in actual mortal sin, or only in Original Sin, immediately descend into Hell" (Denz.693). This is also the explicit teaching of the Council of Lyons II (Denz. 464).

  6. #6
    Senior Member Stríbog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Last Online
    Wednesday, January 12th, 2005 @ 11:45 PM
    Subrace
    Nordid-Baltid (Aistin)
    Country
    Vinland Vinland
    Location
    Where Rust Belt meets Farm Belt
    Gender
    Age
    35
    Occupation
    college student
    Politics
    Environmentalism and eugenics
    Religion
    occultism & Nature worship
    Posts
    2,163
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    4
    Thanked in
    4 Posts

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Milesian
    Actually, after some more research, I believe I was mistaken about a "limbo" for unbaptised infants.Augustine declared: 'Let no one promise infants who have not been baptized a sort of middle place of happiness between damnation and Heaven, for this is what the Pelagian heresy promised them' (The Soul and Its Origin, Patrologiae Latinae, Migne, 44:475). St. Augusitine and many early fathers held that unbaptized infants go to Hell. Thus, the Ecumenical Council of Florence declared: "The souls of those who die in actual mortal sin, or only in Original Sin, immediately descend into Hell" (Denz.693). This is also the explicit teaching of the Council of Lyons II (Denz. 464).
    'Tis a fine religion indeed....

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Last Online
    Thursday, November 8th, 2018 @ 04:17 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Other Other
    Gender
    Occupation
    student
    Politics
    Irish Nationalist
    Posts
    1,754
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Post

    Actually, Stribog, and i hope i can remember this accurately rnough to paraphrase, but i was once told that the best thing about this religion - what sets it above all else was the fact that anyone can be forgiven and accepted into Heaven. Anyone, no matter what you have done in life, if you really repent, you can still go to Heaven.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Johnny Reb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Sunday, November 29th, 2009 @ 08:58 PM
    Subrace
    Arya/W.Baltic with Brunn
    Country
    Canada Canada
    Gender
    Politics
    Paleoconservative
    Religion
    Catholic
    Posts
    534
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    This statement isn't based on any real scriptural knowledge, nor do I want to delve into the "private judgement of protestantism", but I do find it hard to believe that The Lord would condemn babies who are unbaptized to an eternity of hellfire and damnation.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Last Online
    Thursday, November 8th, 2018 @ 04:17 PM
    Ethnicity
    Anglo-American
    Subrace
    Nordid
    Country
    Other Other
    Gender
    Occupation
    student
    Politics
    Irish Nationalist
    Posts
    1,754
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1
    Thanked in
    1 Post

    Post

    so do i, johnny. of course i find it hard to believe in god so im at a double loss
    However, most religious people would have great difficulty in trying to reconcile the idea that God ''took the baby away'' in the first place, perhaps so abrubtly a baptism couldnt be arranged, if only to put it into hell.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Johnny Reb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Last Online
    Sunday, November 29th, 2009 @ 08:58 PM
    Subrace
    Arya/W.Baltic with Brunn
    Country
    Canada Canada
    Gender
    Politics
    Paleoconservative
    Religion
    Catholic
    Posts
    534
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    0
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    0
    Thanked in
    0 Posts

    Post

    If every Pope is infallible, couldn't he just change the doctrine and make it so? Or is it more complicated than that? (Probably.)

    And what about miscarriages? When the baby dies before it's born? Does that count as unbaptized, or are miscarried and aborted babies afforded some leniency?
    Last edited by Johnny Reb; Friday, September 5th, 2003 at 06:40 AM.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Is Fate a Reality?
    By jesusfreak in forum Christianity
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: Sunday, December 9th, 2018, 01:55 PM
  2. Skaði's Fate at Ragnarök
    By Bill Noble in forum Germanic Heathenry
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Tuesday, January 24th, 2017, 02:11 AM
  3. What Fate has in Store for the US?
    By thricelost in forum The United States
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: Tuesday, September 21st, 2010, 05:08 AM
  4. The Fate of Greenland's Vikings
    By Blutwölfin in forum Viking Age
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Friday, September 7th, 2007, 07:19 PM
  5. The Fate of Soviet Prisoners of War
    By Ross in forum Modern Age & Contemporary History
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: Sunday, August 15th, 2004, 06:23 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •